Ball Triggers on European Guns?

[dave_person]

Dave,

Thanks as always for taking the time to give your input on my questions. Thanks for the info on the Scottish pistol trigger! The turn off pistols you were discussing were flintlock correct? I completely agree about the Scottish being reluctant to change! It is interesting though that the famous Breadalbane gun does have a triggerguard, so Laird Campbell may have specifically asked for one when he had it built.

Hi,
So does the Scottish long gun made for Charles I. I guess they figured he would blow his fool head off if the gun had no guard. He got it chopped off instead.

dave

 

[rickystl]

Hi Rudyard

Yes, the locks on both guns follow a common Persian pattern. The two-piece stock on the Ottoman rifle is actually the most common. And often intentionally made of different woods. One theory for the separate rear butt stock portion was to allow easy changes in length (LOP) for different shooters as the guns tended to change hands often. I guess the different wood was considered a cosmetic enhancement (?) But almost every one I've seen was built this way.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Hi Buckskinner

The design and overall features of the Ottoman pistols varied greatly. Barrels and locks were both imported and made locally in numerous combinations. But many of the features of early 18th Century French pistols seemed to be especially popular, and continued through the mid 19th Century. There were even European gun makers that would make complete pistols and decorate them for local tastes for export to the Eastern markets. And the market was apparently hugh. Here is a couple examples.......
Rick

 

[Tacksman45]

Thanks so much for this Rick!

 

[Rudyard]

Rick I doubt Charles the first owned a Scotts longarm If he had surely it would be known ?. No doubt he had his failings.' Men are not gods' ,but I think the need to ridicule him is uncalled for. . Your ready changeable butt length theory is interesting but the divide is oft as not just a decorative one. If Persian ones seem to be of ivory, more than Turkish ones tend to be . You clearly know your subject and show great examples . Incidentally Glenbow Museum in Calgary have a miguelet locked and stocked in the Turkish manner , but using a Fergusson barrel & guard/plug by Durs Egg .Clearly they liked to idea but didn't want the "funny" stock shapes Durs Egg put it into .! I have a Turkish target rifle small lock and dove tailed in long rang sights very unusual to have dove tails in any barrel and I think the sights are more for a picket bullet since they seem to exceed any balls ranges .. I cant match your photos but I could post them if of interest .Might take awhile . Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Rick I doubt Charles the first owned a Scotts longarm If he had surely it would be known ?. No doubt he had his failings.' Men are not gods' ,but I think the need to ridicule him is uncalled for. . Your ready changeable butt length theory is interesting but the divide is oft as not just a decorative one. If Persian ones seem to be of ivory, more than Turkish ones tend to be . You clearly know your subject and show great examples . Incidentally Glenbow Museum in Calgary have a miguelet locked and stocked in the Turkish manner , but using a Fergusson barrel & guard/plug by Durs Egg .Clearly they liked to idea but didn't want the "funny" stock shapes Durs Egg put it into .! I have a Turkish target rifle small lock and dove tailed in long rang sights very unusual to have dove tails in any barrel and I think the sights are more for a picket bullet since they seem to exceed any balls ranges .. I cant match your photos but I could post them if of interest .Might take awhile . Regards Rudyard

Hi,
It is "Scots" not "Scotts". The gun is in the Tower of London collection and documented several times by Claude Blair and others. It may actually have been made for Louis XIII of France but gifted to Charles at some point during his reign. It probably was made by Robert Alison of Dundee.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Dave. OK Scots one T, I was being generous sorry . Re provenance to the unfortunate Charles . .The Royal armouries had lots of guns still have .They even have one I made. But I would be curious as to the specific link could you advise me ?. I am not annoyed particularly . Your remark suggests you have some down on ball triggers and the unfortunate Charles ?. Over the years I've used 13 pieces with ball triggers made all but two of them hunted with them ,shot matches with them ,five on Turkish pieces one on a English lock piece , So perhaps I am more familiar with these triggers and related locks. Unless its faulty any flint or cap lock gun wouldn't need its guard until brought to full cock at which point the user should be ready to use it . Few would normally carry a gun full cocked . But the guard wont harm any so I'm not advocating you remove them .
Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Dave. OK Scots one T, I was being generous sorry . Re provenance to the unfortunate Charles . .The Royal armouries had lots of guns still have .They even have one I made. But I would be curious as to the specific link could you advise me ?. I am not annoyed particularly . Your remark suggests you have some down on ball triggers and the unfortunate Charles ?. Over the years I've used 13 pieces with ball triggers made all but two of them hunted with them ,shot matches with them ,five on Turkish pieces one on a English lock piece , So perhaps I am more familiar with these triggers and related locks. Unless its faulty any flint or cap lock gun wouldn't need its guard until brought to full cock at which point the user should be ready to use it . Few would normally carry a gun full cocked . But the guard wont harm any so I'm not advocating you remove them .
Regards Rudyard

Hi,
I was being sarcastic about Charles. Never knew the man. One reference is

Blair, C., Woosnam-Savage, R. 1995. Scottish Firearms Historical Arms Series No. 31, Arms Collecting, Museum Restoration Service, Alexandria Bay, NY, USA and Bloomfield, Ontario, Canada.

another is:
Whitelaw, C. E. 1923. A treatise on Scottish hand firearms. Pages 52-108 in Herbert J. Jackson 1923. European hand firearms of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. Bramhall House, NY, USA.
I have nothing against ball triggers but when a lock is at full cock, I prefer to have a trigger guard. I've shot a Scottish pistol and under controlled situations on a shooting range they are fine. I would be much less sanguine in rough field conditions. Moreover, in the field I would rather not risk the trigger getting snagged and damaged. I have a steel stocked Scottish pistol to build but I still need to learn and practice the style of deep engraving required, particularly on the barrel. In addition, I intend to make a copy of one of Martin Reynold's turn off pistols, which has a ball trigger. I've lately been making 18th and 19th century British-style guns (photos) but want to move back to the 17th century when I can.
dave

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Dave Your impressive photos tell me you will easily master the chaseing you desire to do. .Re Charles I have both works so will see what I missed . .James was solid protestant re wrote the Bible so Ide guess Charles the first was too . So would be deemed a Heretic by Any French king .Their gun nut King was Luoise the 13th ( good on him ) . Louis the 14th Might have been more favourable to Exilied Charles the second ,Even more so with James the second who was pushing for Catholasism ..But the bulk of the Cabinet d Arms was looted after Waterloo .Which is when the Scot's gun reached the RA most likely. Anyway let us not dwell on such trifles . Glad your not to worried by ball triggers certainly any trigger is a worry at full cock . Looking over your photos I don't think there is any gun you couldn't make if you wanted .Brilliant pieces a great credit to you . A feast for the eyes you have made my day . The gun of my make now in the RA is a Lawrences pattern East India Company pattern made for David Harding and illustrated in his massive four volume work on East India Company Arms . Nothing on the scale of your work . There are two Elizabethan matchlocks in the Winnipeg Museum of my make , Rude things made for the gunner of the Golden Hind .A Caliver & a Petronel. I wouldn't rate Museum quality but they must do . You will do well with 17c I've no doubt . Regards Rudyard

 

[dave_person]

Hi Rudyard,
I would love to see your work! If you have any photos please post or send them to me by e-mail (I'll send you my address). If you have any references of which I should know and obtain, I am all ears. I have everything Keith Neal, David Back, DeWitt Bailey, Howard Blackmore, Brian Godwin, and Claude Blair published that is readily available outside of some restricted access journals. I am completely fascinated by all of those technologies and time periods your guns represent. I am also captivated by British military and sporting arms. While I believe early 19th century British flintlock sporting arms were the finest ever made, I also believe the mid-18th century sporting arms are the most beautiful firearms ever made along with the early "golden age" American long rifles. I own fowlers by Joseph Heylin, Elston of Doncaster, and an unknown maker (corrosion from converted percussion ignition) wiped out the name. They are some of my study pieces along with books, museum and private collections. I study these references and sources diligently, Rudyard, and try very hard to live up to the standards of those great British gun makers. It is a huge challenge because I have to try and master the skills of several trades. For example, for the fowler I posted, I cast and chiseled all of the silver decoration. It was inspired by work from James Freeman and Joseph Heylin. I don't pay attention to kings and queens (or presidents) very much but I revere those tradesmen (and some woman) in London and Birmingham. They are my heros.

dave

 

[Rudyard]

Dear Dave. You bowled me over , Your work is better than good . We are definatley on the same wave length . Ime versatile & prolific but rough on your scale .But I recognise talent. Ile PM you so I don't have to look at the spelling so hard and the machine has a spell check .I am regularly in contact with Pukka Bundook. He too is a very skilled artisan. if modest to a fault .There's an Henry Ellis of Doncaster was outstanding . We today are pretty well obligated to do much more of the work than was ever the case even a small shop in some Pensylvainian backwater would have a master a Journey man or two plus apprentices and used the local brass founders . But the worthies you mention had lots of specialists to draw on barrel makers ,lock makers ,engravers .Could farm out lots of work .While we mostly are one man bands with no such options .So have to be all rounders . So do well & in your case really well .To do what we do .That you'de know anyway ,Ile PM you . Regards Rudyard