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Banning muzzloader hunting on cruelty grounds?

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Here in the fair state of Western Australia, the Police have for 18 months refused to issue muzzleloader licences for anything except target shooting. Their stated reason is that slow loading and bad sights make it unfit for purpose.

Thank you for your letter of 22 September concerning the use of black powder muzzle
loading firearms for recreational hunting.

The Western Australia Police have advised that there has been no change in this law and all
firearm applications are assessed on that basis. The approval of firearm licence apptications in
Western Australia is legislated by the Genuine Reason as defined by Section 11A of the Firearms
Act 7973 (the Rct). Section 11A(2Xa) outlines approved club use and Section 11A(2Xc) approved
hunting and recreational shooting. Section L1A(3) of the Act provides that a person's application
cannot be reasonably justified if they do not have a Genuine Reason for acquiring a firearm.
Section 118 of the Act provides for the Genuine Need for acquiring a particular firearm.

Whilst muzzle loading firearms were developed and used in accordance with the technology of
the time, there are more appropriate firearms that will achieve the required results for hunting
and animal control purposes in a more humane way.The fact that muzzle loading firearms have
a slow rate of fire, lack accuracy for the stated purpose and have rudimentary sights conflict
with the view that these firearms are suitable for this purpose.

A person may want to use a muzzle loading firearm for recreational hunting, however there is
no reasonable justification for such a firearm to be used for this purpose. There are modern
cartridge loaded firearms fitted with contemporary sights and firing shaped projectiles with superior ballistic characteristics which are readily available for this purpose.
I thank you for bringing this matter to my attention and trust the above information clarifies the
situation.

Yours sincerely
Rob Johnson
Mionister for Police

I believe I was the last person to get an 'open' licence, allowing me to use it for hunting or pest control on a private property. (We have no hunting on any public land in this State.)

Can any of you US members knowledgeable about primitive weapons hunting advise of any document or report that addresses the animal welfare or fitness for purpose arguments on black powder hunting and/or bowhunting?
 
I can't really help you, but I have to admit that every time I read stories like this my next contribution to the NRA increases.
 
I think that's the same justification they used to ban bowhunting in parts of Europe and Africa.

Even in the face of evidence that death by a sharp arrow was almost certainly nearly painless.
 
Actually, I don't know Australian Law, but if this happened in the United States, he could be legally compelled to produce his sources for his claim that the sights and projectiles and rate of fire produced an inhumane result. He would also be legally required to demonstrate how he ensures that the modern firearms and their owners in his jurisdiction, service their firearms to maintain this alleged superiority when compared to the older technology. He would further be required to show how he ensures that the users of the modern technology know how to properly apply that technology to avoid wounding an animal. Finally he'd be compelled to produce his data that shows an inordinate number of wounded animals as a result of black powder guns, as compared to modern, centerfire guns. :shake:

Basically, this schmuck is making several arbitrary claims, and the one about rate-of-fire demonstrates he is either a crappy hunter, or not a hunter at all. :cursing: If this logic were applied in the United States, he'd have to ban the use of the .45-70 cartridge in a single shot rifle. Does he allow peep sights, or does he require all hunting rifles to be scoped and have a match barrel? Does he ensure the hunters with the modern gun have them loaded with more than one round in the magazine, or even if they have more than one round on their person? :cursing: Rate of fire means nothing if you're only carrying one round, and it's in the gun.

LD
 
Dear Minister for Police,

Apparently I did not make my point clear that I intended to hunt for game animals and was rather hoping to use some of my personal skills at getting close and being patient and careful enough to assure a killing shot rather than just relying on a superior weapon to make up for any lack of skill on my part. The fact that my weapon of choice requires me to practice and work to overcome the technological limitations and represents a challenge is more of a reason for me to hunt than is simply killing and eating.

I regret you do not seem to understand a concept which requires personal growth and skill as opposed to buying power and reliance on techologies to overcome sloth and ignorance.

Enjoy your doughnuts.

Best regards,

A traditional hunter.
 
The Hunters Ethic of fair chase does not really apply in Western Australia except that we adopt it privately. We were told in past decades to write 'destruction of vermin' on our firearm applications for best chance of approval, and if you are not actually from a farm you have to have a farmers letter of permission. There is no managed game animal population in our one million square miles, just locally large populations of feral pest animals (rabbits, foxes, cats, dogs, goats, pigs, camels, donkeys - even horses) and a small population of deer which have no official recognition as game. Native animals such as kangaroos and ducks are protected and may only be taken under permit to protect crops and water supplies.

The lack of 'fair chase' makes this 'efficiency' claim almost plausible in the Police mindset. Basically its just a mechanism to deny some firearms applications.

Our police have adopted since the 1930s a relatively extreme idea that its their duty to stop us owning guns as far as they can. Its based on the 1920s Irish cop (ex-RIC came here after Irish independence) thing that a gun in civilian hands is a gun that might be used on a cop; and (we believe) on the jealousy an immature cop feels for someone whose car is hotter than theirs.
 
He sounds like a real moron. I checked my maps and refreshed my memory regarding the size of that part of Australia. To me it is very capricious to deny citizens the opportunity to hunt in a traditional manner over a huge amount of territory. It is clear he has some significant prejudice in his mind that to me would make him unfit for office.
 
Stumpkiller said:
Dear Minister for Police,

Apparently I did not make my point clear that I intended to hunt for game animals and was rather hoping to use some of my personal skills at getting close and being patient and careful enough to assure a killing shot rather than just relying on a superior weapon to make up for any lack of skill on my part. The fact that my weapon of choice requires me to practice and work to overcome the technological limitations and represents a challenge is more of a reason for me to hunt than is simply killing and eating.

I regret you do not seem to understand a concept which requires personal growth and skill as opposed to buying power and reliance on techologies to overcome sloth and ignorance.

Enjoy your doughnuts.

Best regards,

A traditional hunter.
Well put sir :hatsoff:
 
is there any legal recourse to challenge his decision?

If they allow bowhunting (they do, don't they?) then they certainly can't use the efficiency of modern weapons as an argument.

AS was said earlier, not all modern weapons are scoped, not all modern rounds pack the killing power of a large RB. There is, I'm sure, reams of info documenting the killing power of MLs.
 
Stumpkiller said:
Apparently I did not make my point clear that I intended to hunt for game animals and was rather hoping to use some of my personal skills at getting close and being patient and careful enough to assure a killing shot rather than just relying on a superior weapon to make up for any lack of skill on my part.
Yeah, but a lot of people don't have or want those particular skills, so the law is made to cover everybody (like all laws). He may think you're asking for a special season just for people like you? If that's the case, then a test would be in order to prove your special skills and proficiency. :wink:
 
The premise that a more powerful weapon is more humane is an interesting one that is based more in theory than in practice. Unfortunately, it cannot be tested with any validity. My own experience (admittedly not Australia) is that the more powerful the gun, the more game such as deer are maimed by people who think that since their round can be accurate to 300 yards this gives them the ethical license to take shots they have no business or skill set to be taking. I would suggest that this actually leads to more wounded game than if people were using a primitive weapon that they know is unreliable past 75 - 100 yards.
 
here in north western washington state the area west of I5 freeway has a lot of development and game mixed. for safety only archery,shotguns,and or muzzle loaders are legal as we do not posses the range or magazine capacity to blast away at anything that moves. lack of range can be your friend.
 
It isnt a WA Police claim about power but 'fitness for purpose'. A .223 is 'high power' here, and a .30-30 or .30-06 a rather big rifle. In each case they must be justified on the animals present on the property you have permission for.

Here is my letter to the Minister:
The Hon Rob Johnson,
Minister for Police,
Western Australia

Dear Minister,

WA Police Licensing Services refusal to licence Muzzle-loading Firearms for Hunting.

I have seen the Ministers letter to Dr Leo Laden about the background of the decision not to license muzzle-loading firearms for hunting use. The rationale of this ruling is according to the Minister’s letter
1) The sights of muzzleloaders are primitive and inefficient.
2) Muzzleloaders lack accuracy for hunting purposes.
3) The reloading is slower than modern arms.
Further, the letter makes an assertion that ”˜there is no reasonable justification’ for such a purpose.

For the Minister’s information,
1) The WA Police routinely licence cartridge firearms with iron sights of exactly the same ”˜primitive and inefficient’ designs. They make no attempt to distinguish, educate or change or indeed take any interest in this matter for cartridge firearms.
2) The accuracy is perfectly adequate. In our weekly competitions we shoot on the 200mm black of the target at 50m and 100m. These ranges are fine for hunting with iron sights in the bush or spotlighting for pests such as rabbits.
3) We fire 13 shots in a half hour including cleaning between shots, and 52 shots for a match in two hours. A 30 seconds to a minute follow-up for a second animal or finishing shot is perfectly adequate, and the WA Police routinely licence single shot cartridge rifles without demanding evidence that the user can reload more quickly. If speed were their true concern they would support use of a semi-automatic by the public ”“ but they don’t.
4) There are hundreds of thousands of hunters worldwide who use muzzle-loaders in ”˜primitive weapons hunting’ under licenced conditions, along with bow-hunters, in other countries and other States. The WA situation is we have no managed game species or ethic of fair chase, but this is the ethic by which hunters operate on managed game species, such as deer, in other states of Australia. The primitive arm puts us, we think, on a fairer footing for hunting.

The person who told the minister that there was no reasonable justification for hunting with muzzleloaders was clearly wrong. They are so very wrong that there is no way a professional person knowledgeable in the field could have been that wrong by innocent mistake.
A conversation I had on 18th September 2010 with SSGT Andrew Gingell, then in charge of Police Licensing Services, may shed some light on this ”˜mistake’. SSGT Gingell was manning the Police Licensing Services booth at the Antique and Collectible Arms Fair. I introduced myself, hoping to hear some perspective on how the new licensing system using Australia Post was going, as I was waiting to hear about my application. (Over the previous 12 months I had gone to some effort advising others to wait and give the system a chance before assuming it was as bad as it appeared it was going to be.)

I identified myself as a pro-shooting activist and said I had the application for an open licence muzzleloader that must be on his desk about now.

SSGT Gyngell became disturbed in manner, repeating ”˜They will blow themselves up’. He started to talk about my application. I decided not to engage in potentially inappropriate conversation about an approval I thought was pending and only said ’It (meaning ML hunting) is a perfectly normal activity’. I then watched for about half an hour as SSGT Gingell gave interesting advice on the law to several other members of the public.

When I got home the next day the approval was in the mailbox, so it must have been sent out already. Now it appears that the last one issued was to me.
It is my belief that this SSGT Gingell having identified me as an activist was tempted to misuse his discretionary power over licensing, but (maybe when he found my application had already gone out) transferred his animus to all black powder open licence applications. He made up some half-baked reasons and from then on refused all other muzzleloader open licence applications. I believe the stated reasons are transparently wrong, and framed in ignorance to conceal the real motive.

This is not an isolated incident. The profound mismanagement and the hostility of the WA Police to legitimate firearm ownership is notorious Australia wide. It is not merely that we have a badly-designed Act or a shortage of resources, since other States have similar constraints without the reputation for institutional hostility inflicted on the WA public by our Police.

I formally request the Minister to investigate this behaviour. It is the duty of the Government to protect the public from the abuse of power by its agencies; and abuse of firearms owners has been institutionalised in our Police culture since our great-grandparents time. The restriction on black powder arms for hunting is institutional misconduct.

ChrisPer
Ongoing Electorate Volunteer for (WA Minister for Education)
 
Tell 'em to log in here on the Forum and check out the Hunting section if they want proof that muzzleloaders can be effective hunting tools. :thumbsup:
 
chris you just wasted your time writing to The Hon Rob Johnson,Minister for Police, Western Australia and i use the term hon rob johnson with gritted theeth the man is a complete idiot that should take himself and his anti gun manure back to the UK where he comes from and he is anti gun no two ways about it,he is the worst minister for police this state of West Australia has ever had he is a total dipstick.
Bernie :thumbsup:
 
Mate, I asked the Minister for Education to have him sacked and that didn't work. I have a special treat for his party coming up soon.
 
chris what makes me sick is our SSAA they just dont seem to care, i can remember when the SSAA took the WA Police to court and wone back in the early seventies for similar manure,there are to many self indulgent morons in the SSAA now they have become like politicians full of hot air but do nothing.ps i hunt with my muzzleloaders.
Bernie :wink:
 
Well, the SSAA (for US readers, www.ssaawa.org.au is our peak body)have been meeting the Plod and getting nowhere. They just are useless at informing and especially at mobilising the membership. I remember the protest march we did - Paul Peake says it made a big impression on the then Minister. I think we ought to stage another major protest, of a different form.
 
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ChrisPer said:
. I remember the protest march we did - Paul Peake says it made a big impression on the then Minister. I think we ought to stage another major protest, of a different form.

i would be all for that.
bernie :thumbsup:
 
Yet, these same bureaucrats will not blink an eye when some idiot goes hunting with a scoped CF rifle that has not been sighted in; or when another idiot attempts a 300 yard off hand shot at a running animal, with a newfangled super-duper hyper short action ultra magnum, just because he saw a show on TV, where some hunting guru said it could be done.

But they view a muzzleloader shooting a 180 grain .50 caliber round ball at 50 yards as cruel.
 
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