Maybe I missed it? If your bare ball comes off the powder you have an obstruction. I would expect it to ring or burst the barrel if the ball rolled any appreciable distance down the barrel before firing. Even more so if a wad got a running start at a bullet half way down the barrel.
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Bare Ball In A Smoothie ?
- Thread starter pa woods roamer
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Billnpatti
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The concern with a bare ball is having it move off the powder. If this happens, you can end up with a ruptured barrel. If you want to shoot a bare ball, you will need something to keep the ball tightly on top of the powder. As others have pointed out, there are a myriad of things you can stuff down your barrel to keep the ball in place. Based upon their experiences with these various materials, I would expect that any of them will work. Just pick one and give it a try but for Heaven's sake, use something to keep the ball tightly on top of the powder.
When I load a bare ball I use a lubed cushion wad under and over the ball. The load column was like a big old Sabot. Works well in my JB smoothbore.
Before that I tried a lubed wad under the ball and an overshot to hold the ball in. After loading it and walking with the barrel tilted down I heard the ball roll down the barrel pushing that tight little thin overshot card. It was spooky for a moment thinking what would have occurred if I hadn't heard the ball rolling.
Bob
Before that I tried a lubed wad under the ball and an overshot to hold the ball in. After loading it and walking with the barrel tilted down I heard the ball roll down the barrel pushing that tight little thin overshot card. It was spooky for a moment thinking what would have occurred if I hadn't heard the ball rolling.
Bob
I shot a patched round ball for years in my 62cal trade gun. Then I read an article about loading the ball with wads just as one would with shot. I found accuracy at 40 yards was just as good , if not slightly better. Follow up shots were easier to load and if necessary, easier to unload. I have actually pulled the ball and loaded shot while hunting. After watching rabbits all morning, I changed to shot at the end of the morning hunt and did not go home empty handed.
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I gave up patched ball once I realized it was not the most historical method. Cloth was expensive, and 'twernt hardly used until the rifle days came along.
Worth repeating. :applause:
"The concern with a bare ball is having it move off the powder. If this happens, you can end up with a ruptured barrel."
Grandpa Ron
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The rifle and patched round ball goes back a long ways so time period is not the argument against a PRB.
The smooth bore had several advantages; in no particular order,
Ӣ It was cheaper to build.
Ӣ It could shoot shot.
Ӣ It was quicker to load.
Ӣ It allowed the use of premeasured cartridges by the military and militia.
Though the use of bare ball is well documented almost all suggest some kind on thin wadding over the ball to keep it in place. I do not know of any early accounts of PRB in a fowler or trade gun.
The only exception I know of for no top wadding are the horse back buffalo hunters who spit the ball down the barrel and depended on the split and fowling to hold it ball on the powder.
Let’s face it, when riding a horse in a buffalo stampede, loading a gun tucked under your arm; depending on the ball to stay on the powder while you bring it down to the rib area, is the least of your worries.
If as described, the ball was held in the mouth and spit down the fowled barrel, perhaps it was loose enough to not cause a barrel busting obstruction if slightly off the powder. That is of course just a guess on my part.
I see no reason not to use a historically correct wad over the powder.
The smooth bore had several advantages; in no particular order,
Ӣ It was cheaper to build.
Ӣ It could shoot shot.
Ӣ It was quicker to load.
Ӣ It allowed the use of premeasured cartridges by the military and militia.
Though the use of bare ball is well documented almost all suggest some kind on thin wadding over the ball to keep it in place. I do not know of any early accounts of PRB in a fowler or trade gun.
The only exception I know of for no top wadding are the horse back buffalo hunters who spit the ball down the barrel and depended on the split and fowling to hold it ball on the powder.
Let’s face it, when riding a horse in a buffalo stampede, loading a gun tucked under your arm; depending on the ball to stay on the powder while you bring it down to the rib area, is the least of your worries.
If as described, the ball was held in the mouth and spit down the fowled barrel, perhaps it was loose enough to not cause a barrel busting obstruction if slightly off the powder. That is of course just a guess on my part.
I see no reason not to use a historically correct wad over the powder.
jbwilliams3
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Admittedly, the vast majority of my BP shooting has been with rifles - but with smoothbores, particularly my new type G I like to keep it simple. I use a bare ball with leaves, grass - anything (as long as it's not too flammable)over the ball. I've experimented with wasp nest etc. over the powder and I'm sure it increases velocity, but I don't notice an accuracy increase when I'm shooting offhand.
Anyhow, I'm very pleased with bare ball and a simple wad when shooting off hand. Again, I like to keep things simple...
Anyhow, I'm very pleased with bare ball and a simple wad when shooting off hand. Again, I like to keep things simple...
Grandpa Ron
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I find it interesting that the reason I gave up using tow, hair, grass and other historically correct loading materials, is because it is much simpler to place a small cloth patch on the barrel and seat the ball.
Poking a gob of material into the barrel, adding the ball, then poking some more material on top before seating the ball was a pain, particularly if you wished to use a consistent amount of material.
Both methods seem to produce the same accuracy however. And, as we all know, there is no one “right” way to shoot a smoothie.
Poking a gob of material into the barrel, adding the ball, then poking some more material on top before seating the ball was a pain, particularly if you wished to use a consistent amount of material.
Both methods seem to produce the same accuracy however. And, as we all know, there is no one “right” way to shoot a smoothie.
I'm not so sure cloth was such a rare commodity.
Maybe factory made cloth was fairly scarce but material made on small looms was fairly common.
(That's why spinning wheels were popular. They could turn cotton, flax and wool into thread and yarn.)
Anyway, I think that then, as now, cloths wear out.
Now we just throw them away or donate them to places. Back then they used every scrap of cloth for all sorts of purposes.
One of the purposes that was directly tied to survival was getting game animals for food and IMO if a cloth patch would improve the chances of that by patching the ball in a smoothbore, some worn out material would be a small price to spend.
Maybe factory made cloth was fairly scarce but material made on small looms was fairly common.
(That's why spinning wheels were popular. They could turn cotton, flax and wool into thread and yarn.)
Anyway, I think that then, as now, cloths wear out.
Now we just throw them away or donate them to places. Back then they used every scrap of cloth for all sorts of purposes.
One of the purposes that was directly tied to survival was getting game animals for food and IMO if a cloth patch would improve the chances of that by patching the ball in a smoothbore, some worn out material would be a small price to spend.
I agree, but I've never seen a reference indicating that patched balls were used in smooth bores. I've been looking a long time, and keep hoping someone will turn one up. If anyone knows of one, please post it.Zonie said:
Same thing goes for tow or other wadding in a rifle, post 'em if you got 'em.
Spence
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
1601phill said:
Relevance to the topic???
Where ever we see loading instuctions for fusils its always wads that are talked about. People shooting smooth rifles would have been suronded by peole shooting patched balls. People who lost thier rifle and had to replace it with a fusil or musket would have known how to use a patch.
You cant go wrong from an hc point of view wadding. No one could document patched balls in them, but I would be hard pressed to believe it didn't happen.
Most of the time I wad, often hunt with patched.
You cant go wrong from an hc point of view wadding. No one could document patched balls in them, but I would be hard pressed to believe it didn't happen.
Most of the time I wad, often hunt with patched.
Note: This post is NOT directed at anyone in particular!
If someone wants to replicate exactly, the shooting of a smooth bore.
They would be using questionable black powder, something out of a bear's ass for lubricant, used loin cloths for patching, even leaves.
So if you are intent in shooting variable dimensioned bare balls ( as they were cast from poor fitting bag moulds, many balls looked like eggs, rather than balls).
Go for it!
In most cases you would be using square shot, or swan shot, and neither of them worked too well either.
A proper fitted round ball of the right diameter with a well lubed patch will work well and safely.
So the stitch counters, and HC police are really blowing smoke.
Fred :stir:
If someone wants to replicate exactly, the shooting of a smooth bore.
They would be using questionable black powder, something out of a bear's ass for lubricant, used loin cloths for patching, even leaves.
So if you are intent in shooting variable dimensioned bare balls ( as they were cast from poor fitting bag moulds, many balls looked like eggs, rather than balls).
Go for it!
In most cases you would be using square shot, or swan shot, and neither of them worked too well either.
A proper fitted round ball of the right diameter with a well lubed patch will work well and safely.
So the stitch counters, and HC police are really blowing smoke.
Fred :stir:
Note to the board from The Stitch Counter aka HC Police:
I shoot patched roundball in my smoothbore most all the time when hunting, because that gives me the best accuracy. I also have tested out and hunted with a dozen wadding systems not involving patches, because I am intensely interested in what the old boys did, the HC stitch counting method, for historical reasons. I realize that last is a minority approach, these days, but so be it. I'm into the game for the history, I use it as a way to study the life style of the 18th-century hunter, and I do it my way.
It's getting so any and every question about historical aspects devolves into a fight, completely derailing the original discussion. This is a good example of how it happens. I didn't express any opinion as to the suitability of patched round balls in smoothbores. I didn't suggest no one use them, I didn't say no one in the old days ever did, I simply said I have not found it recorded, I would like to, and I requested anyone who had such info to pass it along, so I could add it to my personal file. Yet, here we are discussing historical correctness once again.
I don't always hunt in costume, but when I decide to hunt or trek as the old boys did, I do my best to do it right, as I understand it. That means doing what I know is documented. That's worth repeating. Documented. Documented.
Spence, proud Stitch Nazi, HC Policeman, Librarian
I shoot patched roundball in my smoothbore most all the time when hunting, because that gives me the best accuracy. I also have tested out and hunted with a dozen wadding systems not involving patches, because I am intensely interested in what the old boys did, the HC stitch counting method, for historical reasons. I realize that last is a minority approach, these days, but so be it. I'm into the game for the history, I use it as a way to study the life style of the 18th-century hunter, and I do it my way.
It's getting so any and every question about historical aspects devolves into a fight, completely derailing the original discussion. This is a good example of how it happens. I didn't express any opinion as to the suitability of patched round balls in smoothbores. I didn't suggest no one use them, I didn't say no one in the old days ever did, I simply said I have not found it recorded, I would like to, and I requested anyone who had such info to pass it along, so I could add it to my personal file. Yet, here we are discussing historical correctness once again.
I don't always hunt in costume, but when I decide to hunt or trek as the old boys did, I do my best to do it right, as I understand it. That means doing what I know is documented. That's worth repeating. Documented. Documented.
Spence, proud Stitch Nazi, HC Policeman, Librarian
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Well said. There is too often open hostility towards those who mention historical accuracy in a discussion, thereby working to restrict the amount of information that can be shared on the Forum. In reality, saying that something has no historical evidence to support it is simply stating a fact based on current levels of knowledge. It is not saying that anyone has to be any more HC than they chose to be.
AZbpBurner
54 Cal.
I've been a PRB rifle shooter for over 4 decades, and just recently began smoothbore shooting.
I just naturally loaded up the roundballs, powder, and some patches and trundled off to the range. It was only a little later that I discovered wads over powder and over shot wads weren't just for shot use, but for roundballs as well. I've read around several other forums, and it seems the universal sentiment is that there is little/no supporting evidence patching a ball for smoothbore shooting.
Some articles mentioned finding remains of musket barrels still loaded, and the contents indicated, in one example, the use of beaver (the furbearing rodent)hair. Other documented instances tell of grass used as wadding by Indians. Moss has been mentioned.
While I'm not involved in any great need for HC, I do want to know what was used in the past, and what is available today that will give optimum results, in an easy-to-obtain and easy to carry media.
So Far it looks like I'll be trying fiber shotgun wads next, with either over shot card over the ball, or maybe a thin section of fiber wad.
I appreciate all of you who have posted the methods and materials you have used, and the results. Historical background is great to read, and consider present day applications also. And for those who insist on derailing the topic with entirely irrelevant comments, not contributing a whit to the knowledge assembled here ... well ... :idunno: have a great weekend.
I just naturally loaded up the roundballs, powder, and some patches and trundled off to the range. It was only a little later that I discovered wads over powder and over shot wads weren't just for shot use, but for roundballs as well. I've read around several other forums, and it seems the universal sentiment is that there is little/no supporting evidence patching a ball for smoothbore shooting.
Some articles mentioned finding remains of musket barrels still loaded, and the contents indicated, in one example, the use of beaver (the furbearing rodent)hair. Other documented instances tell of grass used as wadding by Indians. Moss has been mentioned.
While I'm not involved in any great need for HC, I do want to know what was used in the past, and what is available today that will give optimum results, in an easy-to-obtain and easy to carry media.
So Far it looks like I'll be trying fiber shotgun wads next, with either over shot card over the ball, or maybe a thin section of fiber wad.
I appreciate all of you who have posted the methods and materials you have used, and the results. Historical background is great to read, and consider present day applications also. And for those who insist on derailing the topic with entirely irrelevant comments, not contributing a whit to the knowledge assembled here ... well ... :idunno: have a great weekend.
When demonstrating smoothies I always show the wad, and do most of my shooting with a wad. The only time I use patch is hunting and practace shots. I can't believe no smooth rifle shooter ran prb down his bore. No there is no record of it. I shoot fusils, so it dosn't matter to me, it dosn't apply to my guns.keep in mind a 6 or even 8 inch group at 50 yards will put deer in the pot and enemy in the ground. Shooting for 2 inch groups would have been a meaningless exercise back then.
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