Barrel Harmonics or Technique?

[necchi]

Fellas, the advice and conversation here has been more than appreciated.

This is a good topic, with a lot of sage advice,
The consensus of holding the rifle normally and "resting your hand" on the bag is key. At our range, with our benches, I have to use several bags up front to get the height I need to "sit" and still hold the rifle the same as I would in the field.
If I'm doing load development (changing variables) I'll bag the butt with a few bags for height also, just enough to rest the butt while still in my shoulder (Shooting for group) until I've found that sweet combo,,
,, then zero the sights while shooting off hand.
Good Luck Travis,,

 

[GriscomRun]

I learned this from many years of Marine Corps Annual Qualifications, as well as being a NM Armorer and spending so much time on rifle ranges, especially on the 200 yard line where we shot Offhand slow fire, Kneeling slow fire and Sitting rapid fire at that range. I could COUNT on having to put an extra click of elevation when firing Offhand, but then took it off for kneeling and then had to add a click or two of windage for Sitting Rapid fire. However, that is 200 yards and one click or two is very little adjustment.

The big takeaway here is PLEASE write down if the Point of Impact changes in the different positions and how much!! Writing it down causes/forces your subconscious mind to remember it AND you pull the written documentation out each day you hunt to remind yourself.

Gus

Keeping a data book is a great thing - if you just write down what's happening you will build a picture and be able to read the results. Also, I don't like shooting the rifle from a hard rest. Much better to have your hand under it.

 

[Crow-Feather]

I have a tripod with a rifle mount on it. I hold my rifle as if I am shooting offhand and then have my wife scoot the stand under the rifle. Then I sight in off hand holding the rifle with both hands.
Next, I kneel and shoot making sure that my ball strikes the same location.

 

[Artificer]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Artificer]

Back in the early 1990's, I bought a used Lyman front rifle rest with the leather "cup" like the one below. I use this when bench resting to support the front of the rifle and my shoulder to support the rear. I actually use the turn screw to make elevation adjustments and before I shoot, I close my eyes and open them. If the front sight is not exactly on target up and down, I adjust it until it is.

Now, one thing you MUST NOT do is rest the front of the rifle on the exposed ramrod!!!!! That will ensure the groups are all over the place, shotgun pattern like.

What you do instead is rest the front of the rifle behind or to the rear of the entry pipe, so you have the most stable position to rest the front of the rifle.

Under the rear of the stock, I have a leather rest that even back in the 1990's was much more worn than the one above. I use small sandbags under this leather rest, ahead of the butt plate. They hold the rifle "up" back there so I'm really only putting pressure on the buttplate with my shoulder. That also helps ensure your groups don't go up and down when bench resting.

I have forgotten how many dozens of ML and Modern Rifles I used these with over the years to do bench resting. If you look for used ones, you can save a pretty penny on them and it's a great investment for years to come.

Gus

 

[Travis186]

Gus,

I've had one of those protektor bags for so long it's black at this point from hand oils. Trust me, every piece of sophisticated bench rest equipment one could possibly own, I have it, including multiple chronographs although I just use a labradar now. My first flirtation with flintlocks years ago were heavy barreled rifles, almost could be considered chunk guns I guess that I just shot off the bench. My family had lost it's lease in West, TX and I wasn't hunting as much at the time, and when I did it was with unmentionables. I just wanted nice rifles for bench rest work. Fast forward 10 years later and now I hunt multiple times a week, shoot BPCR long range, and I'm back into front stuffers in a way I never have been before. Shooting them in field positions is a new concept, so I'm learning something every time I take them off the rack now.

 

[DuncNZ]

Rifles shoot away from hard surfaces , if you lean against a tree for steadiness and the rifle stock touches the tree it will shoot away from that surface . When shooting from a rest I always keep my hand between the rest and the rifle , I never use a rear bag . You may think that sandbags are soft , well punch one and see how that hurts , a bag is to provide a steady but flexible rest that molds to your hand . Benchrest shooting is another thing and does not apply in this context .
I wear corrective lenses which are just fine for day to day use . When I shoot I am not looking square on to the glasses center but high and to the left of the right eye lens, I shoot better with ordinary yellow protective shooting glasses and see the sights and target much clearer than with my prescription lenses .
Remember that rifles shoot higher than their sighted distance when shooting at objects either higher or lower than the shooter if sight correction is not applied .The higher or lower the target is from the shooter the higher the rifle shoots . The reason for this is gravity . If you draw a line from you to the target , then a line from the target vertically up or down to the same level you are on , then draw a line from yourself to the bottom of that line , that is the distance that gravity acts on the ball . so the distance is less . So say the deer is 60 yards above you and and 100 yards away , the effect of gravity on the ball is only 80 yards that is 3 4 5 rule If you have lifted your point of aim for or sighted in for 100 yards you will shoot above the deer.
If you shoot from a tree stand measure the distance from the bottom of the tree to where you are likely to see a deer and sight in for that distance or an average of distances then see where to shoot at variations within that average . It is a bit complex but it works .

 

[DuncNZ]

I recently missed two deer with my Kibler Colonial 58. I was going for a high shoulder shot on both and I suspected I missed both of them high. After getting obliterated in a turkey shoot match with the rifle I finally figured out something was up, so off to the range I went, and to my surprise, these are the results at 50 yards.

The bottom cluster of 4 shots is off of a rear supporting sand bag, and a front rest (the fancy caldwell type). I scratched my head and said to myself "self, you aren't THAT bad at shooting... take the gun off the bags". So then I proceeded to take my own advice, and I ditched the bags and front rest, and held the rifle in my hands, and placed these 2 shots 10" high with no change in windage. I sent 6 more after this picture in the SAME EXACT PLACE, with actually, a surprisingly better group, but still 10" high from where I had the rifle sighted in off of a rest.

Irritated by these results, I went home and grabbed ALL of my rifled flintlocks, and they all do the same thing. They shoot perfect point of aim off the bags, but as soon as I take them off the bags, and shoot them unsupported, the point of impact moves up significantly. So what do you guys think? Technique? Barrel harmonics? Gravity? Luck? Juju? Magic? I've already got a whole piss pot of brand new front sights on the way from Track O' DaWoof so I can start over. I'm going to re-sight the Kibler from field positions and re-confirm zero... can't miss again.

View attachment 106436

Why do you go for a high shoulder shot ?, a shot just behind the front leg will put a ball into the heart lung area and kill the deer and won't waste good meat , and you can eat right up to the bullet hole , I usually go for a neck shot .

 

[Travis186]

Why do you go for a high shoulder shot ?, a shot just behind the front leg will put a ball into the heart lung area and kill the deer and won't waste good meat , and you can eat right up to the bullet hole , I usually go for a neck shot .

The brush where I hunt is head high, one must hunt at minimum 25' to see down into the pockets of brush. At best you'll only get a high shoulder shot. Hit one and have it run and leave little blood trail and you'll likely never find it without a dog. It is what it is. I've made high shoulder shots on at least 40 out of the last 95 deer I have shot. If I can shoot a high shoulder shot, it is my preference.

 

[Travis186]

Got the new front sights in, fit, and installed. The Ted Kramer 40 shoots lights out as always. It's funny, off hand when I break my shots they go a little right, so I adjusted the sights for that but then leaned up against a tree it's still hits where I want. I was taking the heads off on my squirrel targets, so to speak, so that makes me happy.

Now back to the Kibler... we're back on paper and hitting where we should be, but my lack of skill in shooting heavy recoiling flinters is definitely showing. I'm going to go back to the range tomorrow and spend a little more time with it and make sure. Seems like I still get wandering zero, but it's not a 10" change anymore, just a few inches up, down, left, or right depending on shooting position and how dirty the barrel is.

I will report back again.

 

[Travis186]

A little more range time from various field positions today. I'm just realizing that this is a hard gun to shoot off the sand bags as well. The swamped thin profile 58 cal barrel coupled with the big shove makes it difficult, but we are minute of deer at this point. It's not a lot of recoil, it just jumps, and as we talked about, with the lower velocity that plays a big roll, because it's enough jump and buck that it's hard to hold onto even with 80grs of powder. I finally figured out I have to shoot this gun like I do my trapdoor springfield. Tight against my shoulder, and once I did that, we started getting peach sized groups at 50 instead of pie plate. I think that'll work. Thanks again for all the help and advice.

 

[cornstalk]

All long guns, including the unmentionables, are always shot pulled tight against the shoulder.

 

[Travis186]

All long guns, including the unmentionables, are always shot pulled tight against the shoulder.

Depends on the discipline. For silhouette I shoot snug, not tight, not loose. Too tight and I introduce too much human variable in prone, too loose and the 550gr projectile in the fast twist douglas affects windage as it twists the rifle too much, and then when I discovered shooting with a completely slack jaw? When I was into the whole BR thing I shot with almost no tension, trying to remove human variable.

 

[cornstalk]

 

[Artificer]

Depends on the discipline. For silhouette I shoot snug, not tight, not loose. Too tight and I introduce too much human variable in prone, too loose and the 550gr projectile in the fast twist douglas affects windage as it twists the rifle too much, and then when I discovered shooting with a completely slack jaw? When I was into the whole BR thing I shot with almost no tension, trying to remove human variable.

If it recoils heavily, you may also try a technique used by African Hunters with their large caliber rifles. Pull the stock back hard into your shoulder with your shooting hand and grasp and put forward "push" tension on the forearm with your non shooting hand.

Gus

 

[Travis186]

If it recoils heavily, you may also try a technique used by African Hunters with their large caliber rifles. Pull the stock back hard into your shoulder with your shooting hand and grasp and put forward "push" tension on the forearm with your non shooting hand.

Gus

That's roughly what I ended up doing with the Kibler and that's what tightened things up finally in field positions.

 

[cornstalk]

Gus, that's actually only true above the equator, so just Northern Africa. In Southern Africa, or Australia, with your shooting hand you push the rifle forward while pulling it back toward you with your non-shooting hand. I learned this first hand hunting in Argentina and Southern Africa. Never hunted Australia. No idea why this is so, perhaps for the same reason the water in a toilet bowl swirls in the opposite direction when flushed.

 

[Artificer]

That's roughly what I ended up doing with the Kibler and that's what tightened things up finally in field positions.

Sorry, I forgot to mention you also lean forward into the rifle a bit when shooting those rifles.

Gus

 

[Travis186]

Gus, that's actually only true above the equator, so just Northern Africa. In Southern Africa, or Australia, with your shooting hand you push the rifle forward while pulling it back toward you with your non-shooting hand. I learned this first hand hunting in Argentina and Southern Africa. Never hunted Australia. No idea why this is so, perhaps for the same reason the water in a toilet bowl swirls in the opposite direction when flushed.

This is why they make left hand twist barrels, for those below the equator. On our side we shoot right hand twist. Right is.... right? Anyway

Sorry, I forgot to mention you also lean forward into the rifle a bit when shooting those rifles.

Gus

Indeed.

 

[cornstalk]

I'm currently working on the Zen in the Art of Shooting. You know, be the ball. To paraphrase Eugen Herrigel "The shooter ceases to be conscious of himself as the one who is engaged in hitting the bull's-eye which confronts him. This state of unconscious is realized only when, completely empty and rid of the self, he becomes one with the perfecting of his technical skill, though there is in it something of a quite different order which cannot be attained by any progressive study of the art"