Barrel Harmonics or Technique?

[William Lincoln]

Remember muscles and flesh move with the kinetic energy. Rifles rock just like
revolvers do. That is why bull barrels are match shooters and sniper rifles.
The "hand rock" problem of pistols is reduced in rifles but not totally.
The kinetic energy moves the POI slightly no matter how tightly held.

 

[cornstalk]

Exactly. Support and hold the gun in the exact same way and it won’t matter whether on the bench or on the ground or anywhere in between the group is going to the same place. It’s tightness will improve off a bench but not it’s POI.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When shooting from a rest, don't use the rear supporting sandbag. you want the rest position to be as close to the offhand position as possible. The rear should be supported on your shoulder and the sandbag at the forward rest should support your hand on the forestock.

Since you observed this difference on point of impact on all your muzzleloading rifles, the likely cause is technique. Get a wood flint and practice dry firing to learn how to control the follow through. You don't want that sight to move as the hammer falls.

 

[Artificer]

I wasn't talking drop, just difference in POI from positions. The rifle off the bench is 3" high at 50 and about as much low at 100, it was perfect "equilibrium".

Then you have already established your best Point Blank range zero. Excellent.

Gus

 

[SamTex1949]

SO I went back to read the 1st post, "grabbed all my other flintlocks" ! Does this happen also with percussion ??

 

[smo]

I wasn't talking drop, just difference in POI from positions. The rifle off the bench is 3" high at 50 and about as much low at 100, it was perfect "equilibrium".

6” difference at 100 yards.. just aim dead center of the deer, and get out the knife..

 

[Travis186]

SO I went back to read the 1st post, "grabbed all my other flintlocks" ! Does this happen also with percussion ??

No. Now my capper is also a short barreled gun, but this leads me to believe even more it's technique and lockup time over barrel harmonics. It's going to be near impossible for me to get the same cheek weld and off the bags and rest as it would be in field positions, propped against a tree, arms propped on bench etc... so I think I know what I need to do.

6” difference at 100 yards.. just aim dead center of the deer, and get out the knife..

That was the plan... until I got this 105mph knuckle ball curve ball combo.

 

[FishDFly]

When shooting from a rest, don't use the rear supporting sandbag. you want the rest position to be as close to the offhand position as possible. The rear should be supported on your shoulder and the sandbag at the forward rest should support your hand on the forestock.

Since you observed this difference on point of impact on all your muzzleloading rifles, the likely cause is technique. Get a wood flint and practice dry firing to learn how to control the follow through. You don't want that sight to move as the hammer falls.

Sight in as the way you hunt and follow the above paragraph.

 

[Mark Herman]

Always sight your rifle in the way you are going to shot it, bench or offhand. Cheek weld changes, sight picture changes and barrel pressure in/on stock is different. All these things, and more, have an effect on POI.

 

[Nuthatch]

I’ll echo other sentiments here. Spring air guns taught me the importance of having a consistent hold. Those things are more sensitive than MLs but my ML are still closer to air guns in velocity than they are to centerfires. Also, I find sandbags to be quite firm and hard compared with a soft rest I might conceivably use in the field, like a backpack. A little jump wouldn’t be out of the range of normal. Other differences may show. A hand is much softer by comparison. Either way, if your hand is supporting the rifle on the forestock for every shot, the rifle should buck the same way for every shot.
Years ago, I made an iffy shot on a doe at about 130 yards with a centerfire. I KNEW I didn’t make that bad a shot & exactly where the sights were when the shot broke. But the doe was MIA. We found her the next morning not far from where she had stood for the shot. The shot landed about 6” high. That’s when I learned about using hard rests and the jump a rifle can make before the bullet is even gone. Keep in mind, that 6” jump at 130 yards was with a bolt-action .243. Just imagine what can happen with a flintlock in the same amount of time.

 

[sportster73hp]

I shoot to the right offhand compared to benched. People sometimes look at me funny when i am standing near the bench instead of sitting. I usually just explain this is how the match is shot so this is how I practice.

 

[Steve Martin]

Very good discussion. I just learned some things to look out for when shooting ANY of my guns!

 

[Travis186]

Fellas, the advice and conversation here has been more than appreciated.

 

[Siringo]

A lot of good responses here. One thing to remember, is when the gun goes off, it immediately recoils WHILE the projectile is still in the barrel. The longer the barrel and slower velocity just makes point of impact changes more prevalent. Off of a bench with heavy recoiling cartridge guns and muzzleloaders I grasp the forearm in the same place I would while hunting. Then I practice in the shooting position I would normally use. Which will be standing or sitting. I try not to put a torque on the forearm. With thin swamped barrels, imparted torque will effect shot placement.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I like this explanation and another experienced shooter I consider a mentor mentioned something similar. I've just never had this issue with unmentionables, but I guess it's an easy fix... sight the flinters in with the gun in my hands, not rested front and rear.

Artificer has the most likely answer to your issue. Sight alignment is most critical for good shooting. You are doing that or you would not be getting decent groups. Bench versus offhand can place the eyes in different positions relative to the sights. For a new gun, I say work up your group on the bench, but fine tune windage and elevation offhand.
Larry

 

[cornstalk]

SO I went back to read the 1st post, "grabbed all my other flintlocks" ! Does this happen also with percussion ??

Yes, it happens with any firearm. Muzzleloader or not.

 

[Wildrangeringreen]

Just have to keep in mind that these aren't free-floated barrels (most firearms weren't until the last 20 years... now "you have to" have it free floated, or it won't shoot straight )

changing the pressure on the stock changes the pressure loading on the barrel, and that changes the point in the oscillation of the barrel where the projectile leaves the muzzle. If it's a bench gun, sight it in from a bench, if it's a field gun, hold it in your hand, with your hand on a bag; the rear bag is only really there to limit how much the gun can move (compared to free handing it), not to support the full weight of the stock. It is also advisable to adjust your bags up and down to make your upper body posture as close to your natural shooting position as possible, to minimize any changes to eye position (especially if the stock wasn't fitted to you).

Aside from missing your deer, looks like good shooting

 

[ohio ramrod]

I also have noted that I shoot higher off hand than from a bench. My theory is that from the bench I have all of the time I need to get the front sight even with the rear sight. But off hand I see more of the front sight so I shoot higher because I am actually aiming higher.

 

[cornstalk]

Just have to keep in mind that these aren't free-floated barrels (most firearms weren't until the last 20 years... now "you have to" have it free floated, or it won't shoot straight )

changing the pressure on the stock changes the pressure loading on the barrel, and that changes the point in the oscillation of the barrel where the projectile leaves the muzzle...

***** WARNING: using an unmentionable as an example *****
So true. I've got a rolling block 30-40 Krag (Scoped) whose barrel touches the wood everywhere along the stock and as long as I only rest the stock in my non-firing hand (and don't wrap my fingers around it) it will shoot dime sized groups at 100yds. Touch the stock on the sides, no matter how lightly, and the group opens up to almost two inches. It is a beautiful gun but with the trajectory of a rainbow. I hunted with it just once to say I did and put it away since.

 

[cornstalk]

I also have noted that I shoot higher off hand than from a bench. My theory is that from the bench I have all of the time I need to get the front sight even with the rear sight. But off hand I see more of the front sight so I shoot higher because I am actually aiming higher.

Equal height equal light. Working up a load off the bench is a good thing, if done correctly, as it obviously provides the most stable platform. But after that practice like you will use it in the field so you develop good muscle memory which leads to consistency.