Barrel Key Direction

[noworries]

I was just looking through some pics for another thread and began noticing that the Keys on Hawkens rifles were positioned left to right, Now I suppose this could be due to whom ever the Museum curator is just put them in that way or was that the way Hawkens were intended to be?

 

[MercerLake]

:v Probably a comfort thing! The Key if it protrudes very far into the palm of the hand is very uncomfortable, reversed so the rounded flare of the key lies in the palm and you won't feel it.
Just $.02 worth/ money back guarantee. :v

 

[LaBonte]

The keys on guns built by the Hawken rifles were intended to be left to right - several of the originals have key keepers which prevent the key from being removed (lost) and those built that way are set up for left to right.....

 

[M Kuhn]

I spent weeks downloading pics of every original Hawken I could find before I built mine.
Most go left to right but I found many pictures of them right to left as well.
I don't think it really matters.
I put mine right to left for the very reason someone else pointed out.
The keys protruding from the left are right under the ball of my thumb.
When they are in right to left my fingers go around them.
I think that is probably the reason you see many originals that way as well.
Just a personal preference.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Pictures are not good evidence of direction, as negatives are often reversed accidentally in the printing process.( The Famous, and only, picture of "Billy the Kid" shows him carrying a revolver in a left hand holster- but, if you look at the Winchester at his side, the loading gate would also be on the Left Side of the action- clear proof that the negative was reversed for the printing, and that " Billy the Kid" was not a Left hand gunfighter. )

Check out actual guns to find out what is the common direction, or talk to one of the true experts- the Hawken Shop, Chuck Dixon, Don Stith-- and others-- who have done the on hands research and can answer the question.

 

[gordy]

IMHO, I don't think it makes a difference as to the key being left to right or right to left. As to the key lock it too could be reversed to accmadate the individual shooters hold. :thumbsup:

 

[robinghewitt]

I have to stop and think if the wedge isn't captive. Fortunately all European captive pins I have seen go in with the head on the same side as the head(s) on the lock fixing cross bolt(s).

 

[noworries]

Pictures are not good evidence of direction, as negatives are often reversed accidentally in the printing process.

Well that would mean that every Hawken in the collection at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center have the locks on the left side and as I lived in Cody for a couple of years and spent many hours drooling over those rifles I don't recall that ever being mentioned. The photographs I was referring to are the Museums photographs in very high definition and every one of them distinctly show the keys inserted on the opposite side of the lock. Who knows..perhaps the person responsible for maintaining them is left handed and that is how he/she inserted them :idunno:

 

[Dphar]

:v Probably a comfort thing! The Key if it protrudes very far into the palm of the hand is very uncomfortable, reversed so the rounded flare of the key lies in the palm and you won't feel it.
Just $.02 worth/ money back guarantee. :v

A quality rifle will not have keys protruding so far as the cause comfort problems.

Near 100% of Hawken rifles will have the keys inserted from the lock bolt side.
You can look at the BBHC firearms museum site for photos if you like. http://www.bbhc.org/collections/BBHC/index_CFM.cfm

Dan

 

[M Kuhn]

Pictures are not good evidence of direction, as negatives are often reversed accidentally in the printing process.( The Famous, and only, picture of "Billy the Kid" shows him carrying a revolver in a left hand holster- but, if you look at the Winchester at his side, the loading gate would also be on the Left Side of the action- clear proof that the negative was reversed for the printing, and that " Billy the Kid" was not a Left hand gunfighter. )

Check out actual guns to find out what is the common direction, or talk to one of the true experts- the Hawken Shop, Chuck Dixon, Don Stith-- and others-- who have done the on hands research and can answer the question.

I think for every picture of a Hawken you can post of the keys being inserted from the lock bolt side I could probably find one coming in from the lock side whether it was a contemporary or vintage photo, The negatives being reversed doesn't disguise whether it is the lock side or the bolt side. I loaded all the original Hawken pics I could find and it was about 30%-35% from the lock side and 70% from the left side which shows that how they came from the shop is really irrelevant and it would have been a personal preference of the rifles owner.
I deleted the bulk of my photo's when I finished that project unfortunately as they were just taking up space.
At most juried events you are required to have written documentation for something we are portraying and here we have photographic evidence that they were in fact inserted from both directions.
I actually feel rather silly arguing such a nit picky irrelevant point and am laughing as I type this.
Either way is historically correct. I prefer them inserted from the lock side personally as I think it looks better as well as being more comfortable. Had I lived in 1835 I suspect I would have felt the same way.
I also built mine out of curly Maple and I could only find one example of an original curly maple stocked Hawken so that would be far more unusual than the keys being inserted from the lock side of the rifle but you seldom see that point argued in spite of the multitude of curly maple stocked Hawkens.
Again, That is just my personal preference.
Here is Kit Carson's Jacket and rifle and ol' Kit must have felt the same way as his rifle has the keys inserted from the lock side.
No offense I did my own extensive research before I built mine.

 

[Dphar]

Pictures are not good evidence of direction, as negatives are often reversed accidentally in the printing process.( The Famous, and only, picture of "Billy the Kid" shows him carrying a revolver in a left hand holster- but, if you look at the Winchester at his side, the loading gate would also be on the Left Side of the action- clear proof that the negative was reversed for the printing, and that " Billy the Kid" was not a Left hand gunfighter. )

Check out actual guns to find out what is the common direction, or talk to one of the true experts- the Hawken Shop, Chuck Dixon, Don Stith-- and others-- who have done the on hands research and can answer the question.

I think for every picture of a Hawken you can post of the keys being inserted from the lock bolt side I could probably find one coming in from the lock side whether it was a contemporary or vintage photo, The negatives being reversed doesn't disguise whether it is the lock side or the bolt side. I loaded all the original Hawken pics I could find and it was about 30%-35% from the lock side and 70% from the left side which shows that how they came from the shop is really irrelevant and it would have been a personal preference of the rifles owner.
I deleted the bulk of my photo's when I finished that project unfortunately as they were just taking up space.
At most juried events you are required to have written documentation for something we are portraying and here we have photographic evidence that they were in fact inserted from both directions.
I actually feel rather silly arguing such a nit picky irrelevant point and am laughing as I type this.
Either way is historically correct. I prefer them inserted from the lock side personally as I think it looks better as well as being more comfortable. Had I lived in 1835 I suspect I would have felt the same way.
I also built mine out of curly Maple and I could only find one example of an original curly maple stocked Hawken so that would be far more unusual than the keys being inserted from the lock side of the rifle but you seldom see that point argued in spite of the multitude of curly maple stocked Hawkens.
Again, That is just my personal preference.
Here is Kit Carson's Jacket and rifle and ol' Kit must have felt the same way as his rifle has the keys inserted from the lock side.
No offense I did my own extensive research before I built mine.

Curly maple was fairly common.
Plate 2 of Bairds's "Hawken Rifles" shows at least 3 (of 7 rifles) with curly maple stocks.
Then plates 3, 53, 64, 74 all show different original Hawken rifles stocked in curly maple.
"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" shows the converted from flint FS at the Smithsonian with curly maple on pg 52 and a very nice FS rifle with a curly maple stock on pg 224.
Curly maple is perfectly HC for a plain or fancy J&S or S. Hawken

You are 100% correct concerning the barrel keys.
Hawken rifles without key keepers cannot be said to have been made with the keys put in one way or another. Its what ever the last assembler did when he put the barrel back in.

Its really not important why the discussion is really beyond me. You look one place and all teh keys enter from the lock bolt side. Turn the page and the keys on the next rifle(s) they are reversed.

There are FAR more difficult/important things in making a Hawken that is correct than worrying about the which way the keys point.
But I like the heads on the lock bolt side :grin:
Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dan: Shoot that gun left handed, and you will find out why some have the keys put in from the left side of the stock. :surrender: :hatsoff:

 

[M Kuhn]

Pictures are not good evidence of direction, as negatives are often reversed accidentally in the printing process.( The Famous, and only, picture of "Billy the Kid" shows him carrying a revolver in a left hand holster- but, if you look at the Winchester at his side, the loading gate would also be on the Left Side of the action- clear proof that the negative was reversed for the printing, and that " Billy the Kid" was not a Left hand gunfighter. )

Check out actual guns to find out what is the common direction, or talk to one of the true experts- the Hawken Shop, Chuck Dixon, Don Stith-- and others-- who have done the on hands research and can answer the question.

I think for every picture of a Hawken you can post of the keys being inserted from the lock bolt side I could probably find one coming in from the lock side whether it was a contemporary or vintage photo, The negatives being reversed doesn't disguise whether it is the lock side or the bolt side. I loaded all the original Hawken pics I could find and it was about 30%-35% from the lock side and 70% from the left side which shows that how they came from the shop is really irrelevant and it would have been a personal preference of the rifles owner.
I deleted the bulk of my photo's when I finished that project unfortunately as they were just taking up space.
At most juried events you are required to have written documentation for something we are portraying and here we have photographic evidence that they were in fact inserted from both directions.
I actually feel rather silly arguing such a nit picky irrelevant point and am laughing as I type this.
Either way is historically correct. I prefer them inserted from the lock side personally as I think it looks better as well as being more comfortable. Had I lived in 1835 I suspect I would have felt the same way.
I also built mine out of curly Maple and I could only find one example of an original curly maple stocked Hawken so that would be far more unusual than the keys being inserted from the lock side of the rifle but you seldom see that point argued in spite of the multitude of curly maple stocked Hawkens.
Again, That is just my personal preference.
Here is Kit Carson's Jacket and rifle and ol' Kit must have felt the same way as his rifle has the keys inserted from the lock side.
No offense I did my own extensive research before I built mine.

Curly maple was fairly common.
Plate 2 of Bairds's "Hawken Rifles" shows at least 3 (of 7 rifles) with curly maple stocks.
Then plates 3, 53, 64, 74 all show different original Hawken rifles stocked in curly maple.
"Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" shows the converted from flint FS at the Smithsonian with curly maple on pg 52 and a very nice FS rifle with a curly maple stock on pg 224.
Curly maple is perfectly HC for a plain or fancy J&S or S. Hawken

You are 100% correct concerning the barrel keys.
Hawken rifles without key keepers cannot be said to have been made with the keys put in one way or another. Its what ever the last assembler did when he put the barrel back in.

Its really not important why the discussion is really beyond me. You look one place and all teh keys enter from the lock bolt side. Turn the page and the keys on the next rifle(s) they are reversed.

There are FAR more difficult/important things in making a Hawken that is correct than worrying about the which way the keys point.
But I like the heads on the lock bolt side :grin:
Dan

Well I'm glad the curly maple is more common than the one rifle I found online.
I took all my photo's from online sources so didn't have Baird's for a reference.
I'm not really a Hawken fan and built mine more because I needed a project than anything.
I priced the books and decided to just get my reference photo's offline.
The books are a bit of cash outlay for one rifle project.
I rarely shoot percussion guns at all but everyone should probably have a Hawken for the heck of it.
It really spends the bulk of it's time hanging on the wall looking pretty while I take out my old beat to death .40 southern mountain or my smoothie flinter for just busting around the woods.

 

[noworries]

Its really not important why the discussion is really beyond me. You look one place and all teh keys enter from the lock bolt side. Turn the page and the keys on the next rifle(s) they are reversed.

There are FAR more difficult/important things in making a Hawken that is correct than worrying about the which way the keys point.
But I like the heads on the lock bolt side :grin:
Dan

Sorry for taking up space with something you see as insignificant... I was just making an observation of something I had noticed. Rest assured, in the future I will consult you as to the importance of any question I pose :surrender:

 

[paulvallandigham]

You have more fingers, than thumbs on each hand, NO? That means you have more likelihood of having one of those fingers come to rest against the end of the key than our thumb, Right?

So, if you are right handed, your left hand is going to put the fingers near, or on top of, or directly next to and behind, the nose of the keys as they come out of the stock, if the keys are put into the stock from Left to Right. If you can adjust your normal forward hold position for your hand so that this is not a problem, then do a final check to determine where your thumb is on the forestock in relation to the key(s)way.

I had a RHed friend who shot a CVA mountain rifle, that has 2 Keys in the forestock. Carlyle is a very tall man, with large hands, and long fingers. He had trouble with his fingertips pushing the keys out when the gun recoiled. So, he turned the keys around- and installed them from right to left-- so that his fingertips held the keys IN the stock, and didn't loosen them instead.

He let me fire a couple of rounds out of his gun. I am LHed. I found the opposite problem to be the case for me. It would have served me better to have the keys enter from Left to Right.

Solve the problem whichever way works for YOU. :hmm: :hatsoff:

 

[M Kuhn]

Its really not important why the discussion is really beyond me. You look one place and all teh keys enter from the lock bolt side. Turn the page and the keys on the next rifle(s) they are reversed.

There are FAR more difficult/important things in making a Hawken that is correct than worrying about the which way the keys point.
But I like the heads on the lock bolt side :grin:
Dan

Sorry for taking up space with something you see as insignificant... I was just making an observation of something I had noticed. Rest assured, in the future I will consult you as to the importance of any question I pose :surrender:

You need a little thicker skin friend.
I don't think anyone is belittling your question.
They are taking the time to discuss it and that's what this forum is all about.
It's just not a huge issue. Plenty of evidence that the keys can go either way, I only threw in my 2 cents because I have had someone mention my keys going right to left and I had to dig out photo documentation to prove it was HC.
Hawken didn't make rifles with brass tacks either but if you look on Harold Peterson's "Treasury of the Gun" on page 139 there is a brass tack decorated original Hawken. That was a personal preference of the original guns owner.
The point is key direction is a personal preference and a rather minor issue.
It doesn't mean your question has no validity.
Relax a little.
I wasn't trying to insult you or your question.
Sorry if I did.