barrel steel again

[jerrywh]

Just a simple question.


























How many shots does it take through barrels made of 12L14 steel to proove it is acceptable for muzzleloading black powder barrels. Oh. Just one more. Has anybody on this forum ever seen a 12L14 barrel blow up?










how many

 

[wattlebuster]

I've seen only 1 muzzleloading blackpowder rifle blown up and it was NOT the guns fault nor the maker nor the steel company whomever they were. It was the moron that was shooting it. He loaded it with 3031 imr IIRC :youcrazy: :idunno: :shake:

 

[mattybock]

it is not so much how many shots are put through it, put the charge of powder used to proof the barrel won't pop in someone's eye.
In the old days a gunsmith used twice the normal charge and then fire the barrel as it was strapped to a log or big plank, breech plug in.
He'd touch of a powder trail and fire the barrel and remove the plug. If the barrel was free of flaws, it was good.
Modern gun makers (smokeless and cartridge firing) use the same method, but with fancy equipment.

 

[44-henry]

I have often wondered the same thing Jerry. With well respected companies like Getz having made barrels with 12L14 I would sincerely doubt that it is a risk. I certainly think the 12L14 is superior to the material that most barrels were made of in the 18th and 19th centuries. Unfortunately it has the dreaded L in the title and many would see it driven into the dungeons of history rather than expose workers to the insidious lead content.

I too would really like to see proof of a barrel which failed under normal conditions that happened to be made of 12L14 steel. I suspect we will be waiting awhile to see such proof.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I too would really like to see proof of a barrel which failed under normal conditions that happened to be made of 12L14 steel.

Probably not gonna find it, the key to your statement is that which I bolded. You go carelessly exceeding manufacturers listed load recommendations and all bets are off.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I blew a douglas years ago, but I don't think they were 12L14. My own damned fault anyway. Loaded, dumped another charge of powder, short started the ball then got distracted in conversation.My turn to shoot and I stepped up to the line and blew her all to hell.

 

[jdkerstetter]

Well Mike, glad you and the others with you, are still with us.....and glad you didn't hang it up at that point.

Chalk it up as a life lesson.

Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Vaino]

Read that Don Getz made a "pipe bomb" from a section of a 12L14 bbl loaded w/ BP, installed end caps and fused into the TH....nothing happened. Evidently the gases escaped through the TH. I truly think that we're caught up in a "modern mindset" of excessive safety factors asre bbl steels and breechplugs. All the pics I've seen of burst bbls show the breechplug still in the bbls and the excessive pressures were caused by human errors. No doubt bbls made for CF cartridges possibly wouldn't burst because of human errors of loading w/ smokeless powder, serious BP overloads, short starting a ball and other obstructions, but the steel in these bbls doesn't machine easily when "swamping" and the cost would be much higher. I for one feel comfortable w/ 12L14 bbls, but then again one has to concentrate on loading properly...afterall, loading and shooting BP guns isn't child's play.....Fred

 

[bud in pa]

I wonder if some original wrought iron forge welded were sujected to say an xray or magnaflux, how many would be deemed safe?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Many European countries (England, Belgium, etc) developed proofing houses because wrought iron gun barrels occasionally failed and burst. Probably at most risk were the fowling barrels because they tended to be thinner walled.

dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

There have been jillions of shots fired through 12L14 barrels. But that has not proven them "acceptable" for some people.
I have never seen one blow up. Even with some very stupid situations. e.g. short starting; leaving rod in; over charges, etc.

 

[jerrywh]

I personally know of three barrels that blew up 2 of them were 4140 steel gun barrels one a Thompson center, One on a modern gun, the other was a piece of dom steel tubing on a muzzle loading blunderbuss. My point is this; in spite of the fact that nobody can show any circumstance of a professionally manufactured 12L14 barrel ever failing under normal circumstances even after millions of shots have been fired through them many still insist that they are totally unsafe.
This in my opinion puts these people in the same category as those who insist that a bumble bee can't fly. No offence intended that is just where they put themselves. I have proofed 12L14 barrels to extreme loads and never the slightest sign of failure.
The dom steel barrel blew up with a standard load of about 80 grs of ffg goex upon proofing. The two 4140 steel barrels blew up from incorrect loading. One was a cartridge rifle loaded with pistol powder. The Thompson center was loaded with one standard load on top of another standard load.”“”“
What this does prove is that nothing is fool proof if the fool is big enough.

 

[John Taylor]

If you could find a copy of Jerry Cunningham's book you would see what it takes two blow up a barrel. He was the owner of Orion barrel and he and to other gents did some extensive testing of barrels, some up to eight times the powder charge and eight balls.
One page from his book,

 

[Zonie]

For what it's worth, I can find no reference to a "Bismuth solid round bar stock" that's listed in the above posts photocopy.

1214 on the other hand has exactly the same mechanical properties as 12L14 steel.
The only difference is the 12L14 steel has a very small amount of lead dispersed throughout it.
The lead serves as a lubricant to improve the ease of machining the steel.

From a mechanical strength standpoint it appears to me the only difference between the two tests shown in the table above is the barrel wall of the 1214 steel was .175 vs a wall thickness of .234 used with the 12L14 steel barrel.

 

[Robby]

I don't understand the description either Zonie. Does it mean the .50 X 7/8 X 35 is the same steel as 12L14 with the exception that it contains Bismuth in the same proportions as the lead and everything else is the same?
All these test are interesting in their own right, but the facts are as Jerry and many others have stated. I trust the stuff!
Robby

 

[THORNAPPLE]

Jerry, to you second question. Yes! But not under normal conditions. Last October, a gentleman in our club, shooting a Getz barreled rifle I built for him about 3 yrs prior did it! We figure by the damage, he loaded his normal load, got distracted and went back and short started another ball, got distracted again, then proceeded to shoot it in a line match. Fortunately no one was injured, but 25 shooters were very shaken up by it in the aftermath. We have since rededicated ourselves to safer practices and fewer distractions.

When the loaded ball hit the short started ball it bust and flying lead & patch squirted out the sides of the split. Suprisingly the lower flat with the pin lug dovetailed in was still intact.
The stock can be repaired and I am still waiting (almost 9 months)on a replacement barrel.
HEY, HEY, LET'S BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!

 

[jerrywh]

Thanks for the photo. That photo indicates two thing to me. It looks as though there was little or no shrapnel like a grenade explosion. That is good and from the 4140 barrels I have seen blown up they sort of disintegrate.
My number two thought is the position of the failures indicates to me it was definitely short start caused or a barrel obstruction. It is also interesting that the barrel didn't blow out where the bottom lug was. You would think tha twaould be the weakest point. So the ball was ahead of that point.

 

[GBG]

I have a 12L14 barrel 1.050 ATF, .620 bore, .650 groove to mount on an underhammer action. What would you consider a safe max charge of 2F with one PRB?

 

[jerrywh]

What does ATF stand for? Is that the muzzle , the breach, or the waist? Who made the barrel?
PS. Large bores accually generate less pressure than small bores do with porportionate charges.

 

[THORNAPPLE]

GBG, that's the same size as my Getz Jaeger barrel, 31" straight octagonal. I won't suggest what the max safe load would be. I shoot 65-70 grs. Goex 2f powder for targets and 90grs. for deerhunting. After dropping a 450# blackbear w/90grs....I don't see the need to go higher!
Oh, I have accidentally done a double charge, a couple of times, without any problems other than heavier recoil!
Jerry, I think ATF is "across the flats" or automatic tranny fluid or alcohol-tobacco-firearms, or take your pic :grin: