Barrel Twist

[LONGHORN]

My experience with muzzle loading is limited. I was wondering about barrel twist all I know is the twist is how many inches it takes the rifling to complete one revolution.

It seems that a 1:60 is best for balls and a 1:48 is best for bullets is this correct? If so can I compromise?

I plan to shoot balls for sure and may want to shoot bullets. My question is, can a 1:48 shoot balls almost as good as a 1:60 or can a 1:60 shoot bullets almost as good as a 1:48? Which twist should I choose for my first muzzleloader? I apologize if this is a ridicules question but any thoughts would be appreciated. Ps I would be getting a 50 cal hawken type rifle.

 

[tg]

Bore size is a factor here as well, generaly speaking in a 40-54+ cal gun you can use a 1/48 twist and get acceptable accuracy from balls and the right bullet ( usually a modern designed one)...had to throw that in, the range of powder loads may be quite narrow with one or the other or both compared to having a twist specificaly for one or another, you will find little advantage in conicals over balls for hunting, quite possibly a disadvantge in some scenarios.A quality RB gun is hard to beat and cheaper to shoot, and will feel like a better choice if the history bug starts to nibble on your toes.

 

[arquebus]

Generally speaking a twist rate in the vicinity of 1:66" is designed for roundballs, 1:48" can do either projectile type ok but the velocity with RBs has to be kept down a bit, & 1:24" is for conicals. That being said, the slower twists 1:60" to 1:72" can also be used with Minie balls IF they have suitable rifling (ie. RB barrels tend to have deeper rifling than do barrels intended for Minies which can cause problems with gas-cutting/blowby).

 

[Zonie]

Longhorn: You are correct. The 1-60 twist barrels are more tolerant of large powder loads with a roundball than the faster twist in the 1-48 is however, there are a lot of shooters who have found that the 1-48 twist works fine with fairly large powder loads and roundballs too.

The 1-48 is often thought of as a compromise which can shoot either roundballs or fairly heavy slugs quite accurately.

The 1-60 usually doesn't do very well with long heavy conicals because their weight keeps the velocity down and they need fairly high velocities with the slow twist to stabilize them.

Short conicals like Ball-etts will usually shoot quite well in the slow 1-60 twist barrels.

IMO, a larger issue than the rate of twist is the depth of the rifleing grooves.
In general, the shallow grooved guns work best with elongated bullets while the deep grooved barrels work best with patched roundballs.

A good example of this is an original Hawken.
These guns usually had a 1-48 twist but the grooves were quite deep. They could shoot a patched roundball loaded over massive powder loads (150+ grains) and still have exceptional accuracy.

On the other hand, my Schuetzen has .003 deep grooves (made for paper patched bullets) and it won't shoot a roundball accurately no matter what I do.

zonie

 

[LONGHORN]

Thank you all for the tips. I don't know if any one has an idea about how deep the rifling on a lyman great plains rifle / hunter is, but thats what I am plannig to get.

 

[Zonie]

The Lyman Great Plains Rifle has a 1-60 twist with .010 deep grooves. Excellent for patched roundballs.

The Lyman Great Plains Hunter has a 1-32 twist with .007 deep grooves.
The .007 deep grooves should be good for patched roundballs but the fast 1-32 twist prevents their use with even moderate powder loads.
This rifle is basically made for shooting bullets in sabots, both of them being rather (to vary) expensive when compared with a plain patched roundball.

The GPR by the way is owned by many of our members (including myself) and is an exceptionally accurate rifle when used with a .490 diameter ball (for a .50 caliber bore) and a .018 thick pillow ticking patch.
IMO, dollar for dollar, it is very hard to beat this rifle.

zonie

 

[LONGHORN]

I guess another question I have, since you’ve been so helpful is, should I go with flint or cap? I have a little experience with cap but none with flint. I would really like to shoot flint but I live in the Pacific North West and the weather can get damp during the hunting season.

 

[tg]

I hunt the costal mts. of NW Oregon with flintlocks and find they work rather well as do the RB, never found a need for bullets they astuall may not do as well on Elk from what many tell me, the LGP is a great hunting gun with the venerable RB, one can get two barrels for this gun but I suspect the RB barrel will se the most use after you are settled into the game.

 

[LONGHORN]

Thank you.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, the Flintlock is a breed unto itself while the percussion is, as you know, not very different from a modern gun.

IMO, the Percussion is slightly more waterproof, faster and more reliable than the Flintlock.
A shooter also does not have to get used to having a small blast of powder light a few inches from his eye and forehead. If you are primarily interested in getting game, I would suggest the Percussion gun.

That said, the Flintlock adds an interesting new challenge to hunting (or target shooting).
Properly set up and primed, they are almost as "fast" as the percussion gun.
Those guns you see in the movies that go Clash,WhooooishBoom were not primed correctly.
Properly set up, a Flintlock sounds more like ClasWhisBoom.
They are a bit less reliable though and if you get one you too will know the meaning of a "Flash in the Pan". :grin:

Oh, that mental thing about the Poof right in front of your eye will have its greatest effect on accuracy when your target shooting.
When hunting, you won't even notice it.

zonie

 

[LONGHORN]

Thanks for your thoughts sounds like the percussion gun might be a better choise for my for my first muzzleloader.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I guess another question I have, since you’ve been so helpful is, should I go with flint or cap? I have a little experience with cap but none with flint. I would really like to shoot flint but I live in the Pacific North West and the weather can get damp during the hunting season.

I live in western washington. Ive fired my flintlock year round. In down pours, to 90 degree heat. My flinter always fires.

One year at a four day event in Yamhill Oregon. It rained so hard for 3 days that tents had to be tired to trees or some floated away.

Never had a misfire, nor wet socks. (still wear the same mocs).

Flinters are not for everyone.

They are all Ill ever own

 

[Catof9tails]

At the time,not knowing much about BP rifles, my first was a Lyman percussion 50 GPH. Started out shooting sabots and took a nice buck with it. Then switched to powerbelts with better accuray. Then picked up a 54 Cabelas Hawken and learned how to shoot roundball. Then picked up a 50 TC Cougar and shot roundballs with great success.

Getting to the point, each person has their preference. Some like conicals and others roundball. I like the roundball myself. Hind sight; I would ask folks at the range if I could pop off a few shots with their specific muzzleloader, if it's possible. If I had that opportunity several years back, I would have made a different choice on rate of twist.

Once you find your niche, you will be hooked! I know my Rugers and Winchesters miss me, Hee Hee!

Just my two cents worth.
Cat9

 

[xxgrampa]

greetings longhorn,

i am one of the very few people who prefer a fast twist for target shooting.

now the most important thing to remember about ML shooting is, the ball must be stabilized to be accurate. revelutions per second stabilizes the ball. 'RPS'can be achived in two ways..

1, is rate of twist.
2, is velocity.

now a ball going 1000 fps from a 1/34 twist will have the same RPS as a ball going 2000 fps from a 1/68 twist.

starting to make sense???

now to drive a ball 2000 fps, you will need deep rifling or a slow twist.if you don't have one or the other the ball will 'strip' the rifling. (ball skipping over the rifling rather than engauging it)

in the olden days when i was young (200yrs ago)it was easier for a smith to make shallower rifling and a slow twist rather than deep rifling and a fast twist. also was easier to make a correct slow than a correct fast twist.

howsomever, the hawken boys (i knew them well) made a deep and fast twist bbl. they could handle a fierce load. the ball was way 'over stabilized' and not accurate at long range. but. it did the job it was called on to do.

so, everything is a trade off and a balancing act. in my humblr opinion, to say you must have a slow twist for a rb bbl is... :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:

good luck and ttfn..grampa..

PS.. of course for a maxi, a fast twist is required due the the ballistic coeficiant of the maxi

PPS... you should see what a 45 cal with a 1-28 twist and 20 or 25 grs of powder can do out to 50 and 75 yds. with zero recoil.

 

[spottedpony]

My .50 hawken has a 1:48 and ive found the most accurate load to be midrange, 60 & 70 grains, with a tight patch/ball combo. a .495 ball with an .018 patch is what mine likes.
Its a bit choosy about caps too, & likes remingtons the best.
with CCI magnums i get 50 yd groups that look like they were from a scattergun.

 

[Old Salt]

Tg makes a good point about the caliber in relation to the twist for shoooting PRB. It is a detail that is often omitted from the 1:48 twist debate. From what I've seen the focus revolves mainly around the .50 caliber and above, no pun intended.

I have noticed that many of the top named barrel manufacturers sell faster twist RB barrels in the smaller calibers ie .45 and below. I might be mistaken but 1:48 twist in a .45 appears to be a fine PRB barrel. I can't explain to you why but someone more knowledgeable might be able to shed some light on the reasoning.

Old Salt

 

[roundball]

I guess another question I have, since you’ve been so helpful is, should I go with flint or cap? I have a little experience with cap but none with flint. I would really like to shoot flint but I live in the Pacific North West and the weather can get damp during the hunting season.

I've used caplocks and Flintlocks for several years each...I shoot and hunt year round exclusively with Flintlocks...spring, summer, fall, winter...sunny dry weather and cloudy wet weather...caplocks and centerfires have laid oiled in their cases for years now.

Flintlock ignition is virtually instantaneous...it is not a multiple stage event with delays they you hear some people say when they're referring to Flintlocks...a good lock, sharp flint, large vent, and good Goex powder is just about like shooting a Marlin .30-30.

When hunting in damp weather there are only 3 things to remember:
1) Keep the muzzle down so water doesn't run back alongside the barrel into the pan and kill the prime;
2) Keep the lock area up under your coat next to your warm dry body;
3) Refresh the prime every 30-45 minutes in really damp, foggy, humid weather;

After using both for many years I'd select a Flintlock over a caplock without hesitation.

 

[LONGHORN]

Why would you go with the flintlock? Is it because of the funcion, do you enjoy the challenge or are there other reasons?

 

[JiminTexas]

My apologies to Roundball. I know that this question was directed at him, but it got me to thinking. I shoot flint exclusively. Why?, well I know that it sounds a little silly, but it's beause a flintlock "looks right" to me. That is not to take away from or denegrate a cap lock. It's just that most of us that eschew the modern weapons of hunting have taken a stand at some point. For some it's the handgonne, for others the matchlock, for me it's the flintlock and others go for the caplock or paper cartriges or even centerfire BP cartriges. I have no problem with anyone using what they will for their shooting pleasure, it's just that flintlock is the line that I drew in the sand for myself.

 

[tg]

I auin't Roundball eithe but find the flinters work well enough in wet weather that the cappers are not really an advantage if a few precautions are taken (allready covered) when we shoot in the rain on out tral walk the last guns shooting are nearly alwats the flintlocks being used by veteran flint shooters, I think that often moisture in the nipple, ignition channel and condensation under the cap can be more problematic than the flintlock, in a hard rain you may only get the one shot but this is often true with a capper as well, having said that a capper is not a bad intro type of ignition for someone learning to hunt with a ML in wet weather and a good quality flinter is a must or it can be a very annoying and disheartening experience...now back to your regular Roundball programing...