barrel wedge

[NaturalPath]

Hello;

I think this might be my first post here so, hello everyone and, I'm probably going to post about something that has already been discussed before but, if so, I need a refresher course. :wink:
I just acquired a Manhattan Navy .36 5 shot series IV and, I found that, when I turn the gun sideways, to the left, at 90 degrees, the barrel wedge just slides out. Of course, it doesn't fall all the way out, because the screw stops it but, the barrel becomes loose. Holding the gun upright, I can push on the wedge and, it feels tight and, won't move. Just when I turn it to the left, and shake it, the wedge comes loose. This wedge doesn't have a spring on it, like the Colts seems to have. I checked and found that they were made like this so, it's not that the spring is missing, there just wasn't one. I found one supplier in the US that has slightly oversized wedges but, the wedge that is in it, is already very snug to push through so, I don't know if I could get an oversized wedge in there. I'm new to these cap and ball revolvers so, I haven't had any experience with these at all. Any ideas on a fix?

 

[Flintlock_bob]

When you push the wedge in by hand does it hit the retaining screw or is there still room for it to go a little farther in? On my reproduction Colt I tap the wedge with a rubber mallet to snug it up.

Have you shot it? Is the wedge tighter after firing? How much gap do you have between the barrel and cylinder?

If the oversize wedge was too tight to start you would just file it until it fit. You would want it to have a tapper so it tightens as it goes in.

 

[NaturalPath]

Thanks for the reply Flintlock Bob. I haven't shot this gun yet, I just received it yesterday. It doesn't appear that the wedge is coming in contact with the screw and, I think that it's as far in as it can go. There doesn't seem to be any gap between the barrel and the cylinder either, with no play at all between the two, if the wedge is firmly pushed in, all the way. All seems tight. However, I just have to shake the gun around a bit, for it to loosen up. It just seems to me that, when you push that wedge into place, it should hold everything together securely and, a little bit of shaking around shouldn't cause things to loosen up.
I'm considering putting a very slight downward curve, in the wedge, so that, when it is pushed all the way through, the end of the wedge will contact the bottom of the far side slot and, grip onto it a bit, preventing it from sliding backwards. What do you think?

 

[Zonie]

As the Manhattan .36 was basically a copy of the Colt 1851 Navy, I would expect the barrel wedge to work the same.

The Colt wedge has a slight taper which becomes wider from the entry end to the end that is on the screw side of the barrel. The wedge thickness doesn't change.

As it is pushed in, it should move the barrel rearward towards the cylinder and frame.

The taper is rather slight and is not easily noticed by just looking at the wedge.

This angle on the wedge should be what is called a "self locking" taper but it does take a slight tapping of a mallet or similar device to make it tight.

Once tapped into place, it should stay there.

If it doesn't, that could be because the barrel is moving back and forth sideways on the cylinder arbor due to wear on the arbor or in the hole the arbor fits into.

If this is the problem, it can be fixed by having the arbor that fits into the barrel hole plated up with electroless nickle or regular nickle plating.

Neither of these types of platings are low cost and the job is usually done by professional companies.

I think if it were my pistol, I would try the tapping of the wedge method and if that didn't fix it I would just content myself knowing I own a 150+ year old pistol.

 

[NaturalPath]

Yep, I get what you're saying Zonie. I have heard of folks putting some type of shim into the wedge slot in a worn arbor, to increase contact with the front side of the wedge and, create a better lock, when the wedge is pushed in. This is something that I could consider doing also, in fact, I may just put something in there, in a temporary fashion, just to see if it does lock the wedge in place better.
It is quite impressive that these guns are still around after more than 150 years and, I certainly do appreciate that fact. Having said that, I'm not really a collector. I purchase these antiques to use them and, I can be pretty stubborn, when it comes to making something work.

 

[Larry Akers]

If, when the wedge is tapped in tight, the cylinder is locked up by the barrel the arbor is too short. A spacer at the end of the arbor will cure this problem. With the proper spacer there should be about a .004" gap between the barrel and cylinder which cannot be lessened by tapping the wedge in further.

 

[NaturalPath]

Yes, I've heard about this issue too, LJA but thanks for mentioning it. However, I don't think that is the problem, with this particular gun. I'm not having any cylinder interference, even when I tap the wedge in, as far as it will go. I'm going to try the shim in the front end of the arbor slot idea. I think that this will solve my problem.

 

[NaturalPath]

Okay, so, in just five minutes, after I put that last post up, I found the lid, from a can of beans that I had opened last night and, I cut a tiny piece of that tin, just the right size to fit in the front of the arbor slot. Put everything back together and, voila, works like a charm. Everything is now nice and tight, it stays tight and, the cylinder rotates freely so, I'm happy. You won't find a better cowboy fix than that. A can of beans?

 

[Zonie]

I realize it won't be an official Manhattan part but if you want to spend a few dollars you might think about replacing the barrel wedge with one for a Uberti 1851 Navy.

Dixie Gunworks sells these. Here's a link to it.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/inde.../product_name/PP1839+WEDGE+UBERTI+185160+&+61

If it works, I'm sure you know you should hang on to the original in case you ever want to sell the gun.

 

[NaturalPath]

Hey Zonie;

Ya, the part number is on the wedge and, all the part numbers on this gun match so, I really wanted to keep this one on the gun. Besides, I'm in Canada and, anything we buy from the US ends up costing at least double, or sometimes more, when you add all the extra charges. I think I'm pretty satisfied with how things are now anyway.

I have to say that, this whole setup with the wedge seems very poorly designed. I don't get the design of the wedge screw at all. I first thought that you could change cylinders by just pulling the wedge out as far as the screw would allow it to go and, that made sense to me but, that's not how it works. You actually have to take the screw out and, take the wedge completely out. Then you remove the barrel and change the cylinder. Is this what they did, back in the day or, did they just have to reload without taking the cylinder out?

 

[Zonie]

If your wedge doesn't have the little flat spring in it, the wedge should just slide out once it's loose.


The hook and screw should allow the wedge to be pulled out far enough to clear the arbor without removing the screw.

The idea is, the hook on the end of the little flat spring will catch on the head of the little screw to keep the loosened wedge from falling out and getting lost once it has been pulled out of the arbor.

That should result in the shooter being to knock the wedge out far enough to clear the arbor. Then, pulling the barrel off (or jacking it off with the loading lever) will allow removing the cylinder (if the gun is at half cock).

Slipping a new cylinder into place, replacing the barrel and pushing the wedge back thru the barrel and arbor the gun should be "ready to go".

 

[M. De Land]

I'd just make a new wedge and keep the original for resale if your going to shoot the gun.
Another fix is to have the cylinder side of the original wedge TIG welded (built up) and refit.
Remember, the angle on the wedge should be on the muzzle side pushing against the arbor slot and the front of the wedge level pushing equally against both sides of the barrel slot next to the cylinder face.
Actually either side could be TIG welded if the edge is buggered,and refit but the cylinder side would be a bit easier to refit as it's level and designed to be square to the cylinder face.
Springs were never necessary if the wedge is fit up right but the keep screw sure was.
This Pietta 1860 has been overhauled with a new tool steel wedge

 

[M. De Land]

The other side of the 1860 new wedge: This picture should blow up for a better look when you push the spy glass icon.

 

[NaturalPath]

Now, that makes much more sense to me Zonie. This is what I first thought but, I couldn't get my barrel off, when I pushed the wedge back out, as far as it would go, without taking the screw out. However, I didn't know I had to have the gun in half-cock. Now I do. Thank you.

 

[NaturalPath]

Yep, I understand what you're saying M.D. It seems that there are many ways to fix this issue. If I had no other choice, I'd certainly get a new wedge but I think that I have remedied the problem to my satisfaction, for now. I haven't shot the pistol yet though so, that could change,we'll see.