Barrels, Twist, etc.

[Vic Price]

Howdy folks,

I found the discussion of barrels, twists and so on quite interesting here today under the "Pedersoli Hawken Rifle" topic and have a few questions to follow that with.

I shoot a .54 Plains Rifle that has a 1:60 ( or 1:66 ) twist in the round ball barrel and a 1:32 twist in the conical barrel. I've always thought of my 1:60 barrel as a round ball barrel due to the slower twist. I obtained a Lyman Hunter barrel to use conicals for whitetails.
FWIW, I've been shooting this rifle for about 20 years and maybe I still have alot to learn.

With deeper groove rifling can one shoot other projectiles accurately ?

Do any of you hunt whitetails with round balls ? If so, how successful have you been in fatal shots ?

Regards, TraderVic

 

[Rebel]

I don't hunt Whitetails but do hunt Mule deer with round balls in both .50 and .54 cal. Have never had a problem with them putting the big Mule deer down with proper shot placement.

 

[roundball]

Do any of you hunt whitetails with round balls ? If so, how successful have you been in fatal shots ?

I'm one who hunts deer with PRBs and so far...knock on wood...every deer I've shot with a PRB has resulted in a dead deer.
Some have dropped in their tracks, some have taken a few steps and fallen, most have sprinted 25-35yds and collapsed in sight of the stand.
My choices depending on what's offered are:
1st = heart
2nd = double/lung
3rd = neck vertebrate

 

[Idaho Elk Hunter]

I have a Lyman GPR with 1-60 twist and also the Hunter Barrel by them as well at 1-32 twist. 1-60 is designed to shoot patched round balls and the 1-32 is designed to shoot conicals as you stated. I shot whitetail last season at 40 yards and dropped it in it's tracks with my T/C Renegade 1-48 twist barrel shooting PRB 54 caliber. Have taken Elk with PRB, no problem under 100 yards with well placed shot. RB is only limited to distance and conicals seems to be able to carry the wallop at further distances is all and still be fairly accurate.
Jim in Idaho

 

[netoleon]

There is a third way. Some manufacturers are making a sort of "slow-twist conical", for example the Hornady Pennsylvania Conical. As the name suggests, I reckon they were trying for a light conical to use in a long, slow twist, PA rifle barrel.

I'm shooting them from my .50 GPR this Deer season. They have good ballistic properties in the 1:60 barrel. I'm pushing them with a very moderate 65 gr. FFFg load and they're only dropping about 5" from POA at 100 yd.s. I don't have any deer penetration data - we're having a lousy season in Southern Maryland ! But even though they weigh a mere 240 gr., they do a real number on my 2x2 hardwood target posts.

 

[mikelange]

Buffalo Ball-ets (I think that's what they're called) are reputed to give good accuracy in slow-twist barrels. Never tried them, can't say. For whitetail deer, inside 100 yards or so (somewhat further, with a .54, if you're a good enough shot), the PRB is more than adequate with decent shot placement.

 

[gmww]

The short answer is yes you can.

I've been developing a load with .45 Cal Maxi-ball in my 1:66" twist. So far Im able to get about 2.5" at 80 yards. 80 grns of 3F. I still need to tweek the load a bit. I mixed my cast bullets with weights that are 3 grns. variation. Going to seperate them and see if that will increase the accuracy so more. Also going to test out the Veg. fiber wads under them.

 

[harryo]

Do any of you hunt whitetails with round balls ? If so, how successful have you been in fatal shots ?

Roundballs are ny preferred projectile for my whitetail hunting. I've killed many deer with them at distances to 70 yds.

 

[Catof9tails]

I have a Lyman 50 GP Hunter and have shot buffalo bullets, Maxis, Hornady sabots, and power belts. I prefer the sabots and power belts. I also have a 54 Hawken with 1:48" twist and shoot round balls with great accuracy.

The Lyman 50 took a whitetail buck last year and he ran for about 50 yards and piled up. He left a nice blood trail. This year, the 54 Hawken with round ball dropped a doe in her tracks. I still have two doe tags left and plan to use the 54 Hawken with round ball.

The sabots/power belts are impressive, but the round ball will do the job as well. It's just me, I like the round ball.

I can't comment on the slower twist, sorry.

Happy Holidays,
Cat9

 

[Runner]

I have a shallow groove 1-32 CVA barrel here that is accurate enough with roundball to hunt squirrels farther than most of us would try. It will put them into an inch at 50 yards without a lot of setup or effort off the bench with 70 grains of 3f 777. I checked because they said it would not work. I squirrel hunted with the gun learning it before deer season one year. I have several 1-48 fairly deep groove barrels also. They all shoot roundball well except one, and that one is still breaking in. They all shoot minute of deer with a lot of conicals also. The one I am still breaking in will shoot the Lee Target mini a lot better then I can hold with the sights that are on it. I have my 1-66 Mountain rifle. It is not as deep cut as a couple of the 1-48's, but it would still be considered deep rifled. I can't say that it will outshoot my 1-48 Hawken barrel because both will shoot roundball better than I can hold them with the factory sights. Now, I am sure I could put a high power scope on the different guns and using a bench, bags, and careful shooting, I could pick one over the others. Using the sights on them, offhand, the 1-32 barrel gives up nothing to the 1-66 shooting roundball at 70 grains of 3f. I am sure I could go to heavier loads past the rifles best and pick a winner if I kept pushing the load to make some drop out. I don't need the noise, recoil, or extra powder needs.
If I was going to buy a 50 hunting gun I wanted to shoot roundball over heavy loads, I would want somewhere between 1-66 and 1-72 twist and it would be at least .010 deep rifling. If I was buying the same gun to shoot heavy long conicals with heavy powder loads, it would be 1-24 to 1-28 twist.

 

[bpollock_sr]

Vic, the depth of the rifeling is not as critical as is the rate of twist.Generalyspeaking ,shallow grove rifeling works best for conicals and makes loading them easier. Round ball barrels match calibre to ball size.the smaller the ball ,the faster the twist needed to stabelize it.A.32 cal may have a twist as fast as 1:32, a .50, 1:66 and a .62 a 1:72 twist respectively.These will also stabelize a short conical, such as the Buffalo ballett sufficiantly for hunting accuracy.
A fast twist barrel in the larger calibers,such as 1:28 in a .50 or .54 are for shooting conicals only and will not stabelize a rnd ball ,except with greatly reduced powder charges.

hope this helps.

 

[bpollock_sr]

hmmmm that should that in a rnd ball barrel the rate of twist is matched to the caliber.

 

[mikelange]

FWIW, my understanding is that original jaeger rifles were, as a general rule, of relatively large caliber and fast twist. As you indicated in speaking of modern-made guns, the Germans seemed to load with fairly light powder charges to attain superb accuracy, relying on ball weight rather than velocity to deliver killing energy to the target. In contrast to the smaller bore/slow twist/heavier powder charge combo of the American longrifle.

Appears the debate in regard to slow-moving, large projectile vs. smaller bullet moving at high speed is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Runner]

The shallow groove fast twist barrel I have will keep .495 roundballs patched with commercial lubed patches over 70 grains of 3f T7 inside an inch at 50 yards quite easily. It was sighted with a 9 power 50mm scope. It will shoot that well using just your elbows on the table as a rest. It was sighted to head shoot squirrels. That is a 1-32 twist barrel and that load is hotter than the load I use for deer. The so called rules are as often wrong as they are right. I never tried more powder since it was basically a test and I was going to hunt squirrels with it to get used to the gun. I am fairly sure I could have gone hotter than that. You have to test the guns to see what they will and will not do. Off a bench, you don't want to bet money a guy can't break clay targets at 100 yards with roundball and 70 grains of 3f T7 all day long out of my fast twist shallow groove barrel! By the way, that is a heavier load than 100 grains of 2f Goex. If I was buying a barrel for roundball, it would be a deep groove barrel with slow for caliber rifling because that raises the odds of it being a good barrel.

 

[Runner]

The shallow groove fast twist barrel I have will keep .495 roundballs patched with commercial lubed patches over 70 grains of 3f T7 inside an inch at 50 yards quite easily. It was sighted with a 9 power 50mm scope. It will shoot that well using just your elbows on the table as a rest. It was sighted to head shoot squirrels. That is a 1-32 twist barrel and that load is hotter than the load I use for deer. The so called rules are as often wrong as they are right. I never tried more powder since it was basically a test and I was going to hunt squirrels with it to get used to the gun. I am fairly sure I could have gone hotter than that. You have to test the guns to see what they will and will not do. Off a bench, you don't want to bet money a guy can't break clay targets at 100 yards with roundball and 70 grains of 3f T7 all day long out of my fast twist shallow groove barrel! By the way, that is a heavier load than 100 grains of 2f Goex. If I was buying a barrel for roundball, it would be a deep groove barrel with slow for caliber rifling because that raises the odds of it being a good barrel.

 

[Jim S.]

I have a two band Euroarms Enfield, 58 cal.that, although advertised as a 1:48 inch twist, measured at a 1:60 inch twist when I got the rifle. As I did not intend to shoot round balls out of this civil war replica, I asked Euroarms about the discrepancy. Euroarms had no answer. I am disappointed that this rifle was not as specified in the Euroarms advertisement that touts a championship with an Enfield two band with a 1:48 rifling twist.

Does anybody have any idea why the Italians chnged the well established twist rate of 1:48 in a rifle originally designed to shoot conical bullets?

Decided to make the best of it.

Accuracy with this rifle is OK to shoot 8 X 11 plywood pannels with the standard 530 gr. conical.
The Parker Hale conical at 560 peformed about on par with the traditional 530 gr. mini ball. Sheets of pywood fled in terror as shots landed in various locations, none of which were reasonably close to each other. Powder was 65 gr of 777. Varying powder 50 to 65 gr did not seem to make much difference.

The Blue and Gray target mini ball bullet does the best of all, but repeateable accuracy is still a challenge, some of which may be shooter induced. That said, I've shot rifles all of my life and generally can keep 100 yard shots within a saucer.

I sure would appreciate any assistance. I prefer not to shoot round balls. My intention is to join the North South Skirmish Assn. and shoot in their matches with mini balls.

Thanks for yor comments.

Jim S.

 

[JOHN L. HINNANT]

Merry Christmas Greetings TraderVic,

You might be interested in looking up a post I did about accurate barrels.

The post was placed on the Forum for by Zonie under Percussion-"Looking For Information" on August 28, 2005.

Best regards and good shooting,

John L. Hinnant

If you are not an NRA Member, why not? I am carrying your load.

 

[Vic Price]

Well.........I have a little time to putz while waiting to attend church services this evening. Several weeks ago I unexpectedly stumbled into this forum and have learned quite abit in this short time.

Back in 1985 I purchased my Lyman GPR .54 "kit" and built this rifle, shooting only round balls until about 4 years ago. While hunting during the muzzleloader season up north in the big timber, I took a shot at a doe and am pretty sure I hit her as she shuddered after the shot. Two buddies were with me and they observed this same behavior. The doe apparently ran away with no bllod trail and we combed the area for an hour and a half without finding any hair, blood or actual sign she was hit. After this experience I decided I wanted to hunt with heavier conical bullets so this wouldn't happen again.

This is why I asked about fatal shots using round balls on whitetails above. Perhaps I was too quick to change over to the Lyman "hunter barrel". I enjoy shooting both quite abit, however, shooting & practicing with "store bought" conicals gets a little spendy. I am currently looking and shopping for a mould for a good .54 hunting bullet. The Lyman looks like a good one, but I'd like to see what's out there before I crack for a mould.

Well...............Merry Christmas Everyone !

Vic

 

[roundball]

Round balls really put a high premium on precise shot placement

 

[Greenmtnboy]

I hunt elk during muzzleloading season here in CO. This year my camp was blessed to have my muzzleloading guru coyoteJoe. We both shoot 50cals with greenmtnbarrels. I can't speak for Joe, but I shoot 100grns of ffg with a 490 ball and 030thick patch. I get half to three quarter inch groups at 50 yrds with my Leman. I am sure Joe is getting the same groups, not sure what he was using for ball and patch.
proud to say Joe got his elk second day at 90yrds. bullet passed through both lungs and out the other side, elk ran around 30 to 40 yrds and keeled over. When I got my elk I shot a little foward at 100yrds the bullet passed through the front sholder blade glanced back went through both lungs and then stoped on the other side in the skin. Elk ran 70yrd.
50 cal round ball is plenty gun with the right shot placement. I have shot tons of maxieballs with a fast twist barrel and have never! gotten the groups I can with PRB.
There are tradeoffs, but it seems we are all here on this forum because of our love for our forfathers and the guns they used. There is nothing like makin' meat with a beautful round ball hucker. :hatsoff: