Basic Q & A........

[James Stella]

I just ordered your book from your web site. I am looking forward to reading it.

 

[Billnpatti]

I'll tell you my cleaning method. I don't know if it is the best way to do it but I do know that it is a damned good method and I have never had a rust problem in over 40 years of doing it this way.

I use good warm water about as warm as you might use to wash your hands. Put a small amount of dish soap in the water, I use Dawn and it has worked very well for years. Flush your bore with the soapy water until your patch comes out clean. Dry your bore thoroughly with several dry patches. Spray some WD-40 down your bore to remove the last traces of moisture. Wipe out the WD-40 and replace it with a good gun oil. Bore Butter is a decent patch lube but it is not intended as a rust preventive. Use a good gun oil for this purpose.

This method will get your bore clean but you also need to spend time cleaning the nipple area and the hammer to remove all traces of the corrosive fouling. Finish it with the same WD-40 treatment as you did the bore and oil it just as you did the bore. Wipe the outside down with an oily rag. I also like to coat my wood and metal with a good wax such as Renaissance Wax. If you choose to use wax, you will need to remove all of the oil so the wax will stick to the wood and metal. It's an either/or thing. Oil or wax to coat the outside of your gun.

I like to remove my lock every time I clean my gun and clean it, too. I use either automotive spray carburetor cleaner or brake cleaner. Either one will do a very good job of cleaning your lock. Just take it outside and flush it out with the cleaner. Then lightly oil the working parts and replace it in the gun. That stuff will really clean your lock and it is a very quick method. Just be sure to lightly re-oil the working parts because the cleaner removes everything including all lubrication from your lock.

That's how I do it. Like I say, I don't know if it is the absolutely best way to clean your gun but I know it to be a damned good way. Try it, you may like it. :hatsoff:

 

[Center_shot]

System received, thank you very much Dutch.

Wow, after reading BP Rifle Accuracy I'm thinking I got really lucky with my current setup and getting 2" groups @ 50 yards.

This info is exactly what I have been searching for. Can't wait to dig in and see what kind of accuracy I can really get. Will be nice to know it's not an accident and why or why not things are working.

I'll be getting the micrometer out and taking some measurements to use as a starting point from what I have, then heading to the fabric store! Time to scour the hardware stores looking for Ballistol and make up some 'Moose Milk'.

As with many things I tend to be late to the party (about 20 years with traditional muzzleloading) but at least I'm here now!

Thanks Dutch

 

[azmntman]

I had to order my Balistol on-line so keep in mind. Live in kinda a one horse town that thinks its a metropolis but even the gun stores had not heard of Balistol when I looked years ago.

Good luck and keep us posted. Like I said you should have no problemo cutting that horrible amateur 2" group down to something respectable once ya implement the system! :blah:

 

[Grenadier1758]

Ballistol is a gun related oil for neutralizing the effects of fouling. This will be difficult to find in a hardware store and not all local gun shops will carry Ballistol.

You may find water soluble oils at automotive parts stores. Note: NAPA changed their water soluble oil formula several years ago and it no longer is a good oil for use in "Moose Milk". You may have better luck in a machine shop tool room.

 

[Adui]

Well.. Here goes..

First, I'm a cheap skate because I'm dirt floor poor. I shoot for the pleasure of the process so while I'd be tickled to death if I could drive tacks all day, it really isn't that important to me any longer since all I ever shoot is paper or steel.

I have Dutch's system and apply as much of it as I can with my meager supplies and poor memory. (Need to reread it)

What I shoot:

Traditions Hawken 50 caplock

490 round ball, Speer or Hornady whichever is cheaper when I buy. (Used to make my own but lost my stuff in the last move)

Home made .015 - .018 ish patch from pillow ticking, lubed with a solution of 4 parts rubbing alcohol and one part cooking oil; 1" strips; soak, squeeze, let dry, cut into squares..

Here's where Ill get flak...

Powder charge: 65 grains of Alliant Black MZ

I shoot Alliant Black MZ because I can get it for under $10 a can and Pyrodex is more than twice the price. I switched to it on an experiment and found with what I do accuracy was as good or better than the Pyrodex P I had always sworn by. I've not used real black in probably two decades because its always so hard to find AND usually costs more than the imitation stuff.

I generally swab the bore with a patch just damp every shot or two. Lately I've taken to doing so AFTER dropping the next powder charge in but BEFORE the patch and ball.

When I get it home I clean with a solution of 50% grade rubbing alcohol and a drop or three of dish soap. (I buy it at the 99 cent store) This gives me a soap and water clean with the advantage that alcohol tends to evaporate quickly, leaving less chance of a moist bore.

When I clean I pull the barrel every time, and put the breech end in a tin can half full of my solution, then I use a sopping wet patch to pump it in and out several times. This sort of pressure washes the breach face and that tiny little channel in it (Cant remember what is called but I have that smaller hole in the breech the powder drops into. Its the one thing about my rifle I truly hate.)

Once thoroughly dried with patches I oil the crap out of it with CLP and store it. The morning of a shoot I rinse that out with the aforementioned cleaning solution and head to the range.

My results: Most days my rifle is capable of far better than the 3" - 4" 50 yard groups I get. If I took the time to dial it in better per the system I'm confident that of the bench I could get 2" or better groups, but as I said, I shoot for the mental zen the process of shooting my rifle gives me. (Its better than therapy for pennies on the dollar)

Black MZ specific information:
As mentioned, my accuracy results are on par with the Pyrodex I've used in the past. Thats the good.

The bad: It tends to form a pretty hard crud ring about 8" above where the ball seats, so swabbing the bore nearly every shot is a must. Additionally, I get a hard crust formation on the underside of the nipple. This eventually (after 10-15 shots) plugs the nipple and I have to remove it, clean it, and reinstall it at the range to continue shooting. This happens even if I use a nipple pick between shots.
The powder also tends to clump in the flask or can, so a good shake is necessary to break it up before use.

 

[Scipio]

CC:

If you want to experiment, change one component at a time. Handloaders who want to experiment normally change either the bullet or the powder first. Then the primer (in the case of muzzleloaders, cap brand and or priming powder amount and grain size). Muzzleloaders will probably try different patches and patch lube before they screw around with priming powder or different brands of caps.

I have fired pounds and pounds of Pyrodex through muzzle loaders, cap and ball revolvers, and cartridge guns. I have never been particularly happy with it due to misfires and what I believe is a lack of energy compared to black powder. I have always gone back to black powder.

Let me suggest you buy a pound of 3 F and a pound of 2 F Black Powder and try both. If you can't get it near you, order some over the internet. Yes, you will pay as much for a DOT fee as the powders but if you find black powder to be a quantum leap over your Pyrodex loads, next time buy a case instead of a can.

As for bullets, if you want to try a conical, let me suggest you buy some before spending a bunch of money on a bullet mold. If you find a style that you like more than round ball, then look for the mold but be advised, casting conical bullets is not as easy or efficient as round ball.

After reading up on Ballistol (SP?) I ordered some via Amazon. No where near as expensive as any firearms oil and it works better than anything I have tried (including whale oil and bear grease) for a patch and bore lube.

Cleaning? I still use Windex followed by dry patches and then Ballistoil. If I could easily remove the barrel on my Trade Gun, I would go with the hot soapy water and lube routine.

Scipio

 

[Billnpatti]

It sounds as if you have found what works for you and within your means and makes you happy. My advice is to stick with it and let others do whatever puts a smile on their faces. :thumbsup:

 

[Center_shot]

It sounds as if you have found what works for you and within your means and makes you happy. My advice is to stick with it and let others do whatever puts a smile on their faces. :thumbsup:

Well there certainly is something to this. But, if a guy doesn't experiment a little you'll never find anything any better.

My current plan of attack is to repeat what I've been doing. Make sure it wasn't a fluke, wright everything down, do some thickness measuring on those patches, weigh some balls and make sure I can get back to where I was. I think I have been very lucky in stumbling onto my setup - sometimes its better to be lucky than good, right? Step 2 is going to be some experimenting with Ballistol and different size patches, using cut at muzzle patches instead of pre cut. In the mean time I'd like to come up with a nice globe front sight to assist in more precise aiming. If I can get that stuff sorted out with Pyrodex RS, then I still have 1/2 can of Goex 2F that I'll run through the same routine.

Hopefully somewhere along the line some nice tight consistent groups will show up. I also intend to do some experimenting with wiping between shots. I have some work to do and some powder to burn!

BTW: Dutch's work on the subject of Blackpowder Accuracy is tremendous. Much of what is states is or would be common sense if I knew the right question to ask in the first place. He has it boiled down and set it all up so anyone can understand it. Wish I'd have found it much sooner, but at least it was found. And a big thanks to Dutch for sharing it.

 

[Scipio]

CS:

One other suggestion that I think pays off big time.

Before you go blasting away tons of powder and lead, it would be a decent idea for you to clearly state your accuracy requirements.

In most cases, an acceptable level of consistent accuracy is about half the size of the kill zone on a big game animal or the X ring on a target made for that type of rifle and position.

I don't envy you. I hate load development.

Scipio

 

[Dr5x]

Dif you get it yet.

People I tend to know by name.. When I deal with a named person and he the communicates with his Form Style name I don't if its them or a different person.

Dutch

 

[Center_shot]

Dif you get it yet.

People I tend to know by name.. When I deal with a named person and he the communicates with his Form Style name I don't if its them or a different person.

Dutch

Dutch if your asking if I (Center_shot - Trent) got your system, Yes I did. Been reading carefully. Thanks.

 

[Center_shot]

So I got out this afternoon and tried to apply some of what I have read. I'm finding my rifle likes to be dirty! Here's a couple targets to ponder. Shooting same load, same patch, same ball only change was wiping between shots and not. Alternating 5 shots wiped (target 1) 5 shots dirty (target 2) 5 shots wiped (target 3) and 5 dirty (target 4) on targets 3 and 4 the wind picked up from the 3-5mph that it had been blowing and gusted to around 10. I tried to wait and get things calm as possible but no doubt the groups were affected. Black circle is 3" diameter. All groups from bench (Costco plastic table) at 50 yards.

FWIW Load is 60gr of Pyrodex, shooting a .015 TC pre-cut dry patch, lubed by me with bore butter just lightly smeared on side facing powder/barrel, A Speer .490 roundball (All weighed within 1 grain of each other) If bore was wiped it was with TC #13 Bore Cleaner.

 

[Dr5x]

Center Shot,
All your targets show evidence of either too thin a patch Material, Not enough powder and or too slick a patch lubeYou are using a .490 ball, 495 would be better.
Your powder charge of 60 grains might do better nearer 75 grains.
In your weighing out of Speer swaged balls you say all bals are within one grain of each other when weighing balls should be within one grain of the heaviest.

by not wiping between shots with a somewhat loose patch the crud left in the barrel might be giving you a tighter fit as the shots continue with the residue build up..
The non wipe groups did not show up well on my screen so there is some guessing here on my part.

All in all you were still getting reasonable groups for fifty yards, bearing in mind that at 100 yards those groups would be roughly twice as large.
Bore Butter, I assume, was produced with the concept that slicker was better. I have come to believe that a little resistance tends to get better use from your powder.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Griz44Mag]

CS:

I don't envy you. I hate load development.

Scipio

There are among us those who look forward to load development. There are fewer things to consider in black powder round ball than modern center fire, but I have enjoyed the process of trying as many different combinations of things as I can. This gives me an excuse to spend a lot more time shooting and a lot less time honeydooing....
Some of the more significant things I have discovered about my gun is that it likes real black powder. I could not get good grouping with the two different synthetics I tried. The same went for the two friends I shoot with. We met at the range and tried each others propellants, and all three of us got the best results with real black powder. Brand of ball seemed to make no difference. My rifle shows the best accuracy with round ball, my friends Tradition shoots best with minis. The third is a CVA modern and shoots best with a heavy conical. I get best results swabbing between every shot, using alcohol, water and Murphys. I blow the nipple out after every shot using a can of computer dusting air. For me, the real enjoyment is the variety, and if I could get round balls in any other weight I would experiment with that as well....

Dutch - where can I get your "system"? Sounds like something I would really enjoy!

Any day at the range is better than my best day at work.

Griz

 

[Billnpatti]

You can get Dutch's system by going to this website www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com You will be amazed what you can achieve by following Dutch's system.

 

[Dr5x]

Griz, you say there is less to consider with patched Round ball than with modern center fire cartridge rifle.
I don't quite see that except when you have worked out your particular rifle's variables it does get day.
You have weighed out all the balls to prevent flyers,
You have 9 yards of the cloth you have learned your rifle loves,
Your patching strips are are lubricated to just the right amount of resistencefor your rifle your powder charger is set to pour the exact amount of powder to give you the best groups at 50 or 100 yards or meters.
All you have to do is load and shoot. All those decisions have been made and you don't half to think about any of that.
The problem might be that your shooting becomes bit boring when you know where the ball will hit before you fire.

That's when you start coaching others . That's what happened to me.

Grizz you can gain access to my System at my somewhat out of date web site at
www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com.

Click on the yellow button

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Center_shot]

Center Shot,
All your targets show evidence of either too thin a patch Material, Not enough powder and or too slick a patch lubeYou are using a .490 ball, 495 would be better.
Your powder charge of 60 grains might do better nearer 75 grains.
In your weighing out of Speer swaged balls you say all bals are within one grain of each other when weighing balls should be within one grain of the heaviest.

by not wiping between shots with a somewhat loose patch the crud left in the barrel might be giving you a tighter fit as the shots continue with the residue build up..
The non wipe groups did not show up well on my screen so there is some guessing here on my part.

All in all you were still getting reasonable groups for fifty yards, bearing in mind that at 100 yards those groups would be roughly twice as large.
Bore Butter, I assume, was produced with the concept that slicker was better. I have come to believe that a little resistance tends to get better use from your powder.

Dutch Schoultz

That confirms what I just read and interpreted from your book. I was trying to find a lighter load (hence the 60gr) that was still accurate. 70-75 is what I have always used before and seems more consistent. I think the patches are about the right width (proper amount of 'wince' to get them started) but agree that the lube is likely too slick. I need to order some ballistol as I can not find it locally.

FWIW: Speer round balls seem to be pretty consistent. I weighed 140 last night I had 6 over 178.2gr and 5 under 177.5gr all others were within .7gr of the heaviest (178.2gr). Had I culled the heaviest and lightest balls all the rest would have made it within 1 grain of the heaviest.

 

[Adui]

Thats what I like about this forum. Ask for an opinion and you will get dozens, but simply state this is what works for me and you and most of the others tell me GREAT! Keep using it.

I may move back to load development / extreme accuracy again some day, but not right now. :thumbsup:

 

[don hepler]

I shoot Black MZ in some of my smaller caliber rifles. I seldom swab the bore. I just keep shooting. In fact, that's what I like about Black MZ. You are shooting a larger bore, but even I do that sometimes. But, the one difference, I use TC lube. I forget the name of it. It's in a yellow and white tube. I don't use vary much lube. It's important that you pack the powder tight. That's what the manufacturer of Black MZ recommends.

I have not detected the crud ring.

Your load sounds very close to what I use. I get very good accuracy and for me 2 or 3 inches at 50 yds. is as good as I can see, with open sights. However I am using a peep on the larger caliber rifle.