Bear Country Backup

[BrownBear]

This topic was beaten into the ground at least once before that I can remember, but I can't seem to find the thread.

I've hunted deer for most of the last 40 years in serious brown bear/grizzly country. Heck we even have them come into our yard, and I'm pretty well tuned into them. Over the years I've been charged half a dozen times that I can recall, and deserved to be charged every single time.

But a couple of years ago I got charged while carrying a 54 cal muzzleloader. All ended well when the sow turned away at around 20 yards, but it stimulated my thinking about suitable backup for my muzzleloading rifle.

Now I've got a houseful of high powered modern handguns and the shooting skills to use them well. But I'm still gnawing away at the question of a suitable muzzleloading backup.

My attention keeps wandering to the double barrel 62 caliber pistols such as this one from Middlesex.

Anyone shoot one?

How stiff can you load them, and how's the recoil?

How heavy is the thing?

How do you carry it?

Is it mechanically reliable?

Thanks for your insights and experiences. Yeah, I know a 500 S&W has more oomph, but so does my 458 Win Mag.

 

[rabjr]

I remember one thread that was locked/moved/deleted because everyone started listing modern pistols or longguns.

I've always been intrigued with the Howdah pistol but have yet to act on it. I would think two .20ga balls at close range would be a potent persuader for just about anything.

 

[luieb45]

I know how everybody here is a die hard traditionalist but with your own protection should not be chanced with muzzleloading firearms that can have misfires. If I were you I would carry a modern handgun.

 

[Cabofdoom]

I know how everybody here is a die hard traditionalist but with your own protection should not be chanced with muzzleloading firearms that can have misfires. If I were you I would carry a modern handgun.

Truth be told, most states will not allow you to carry modern firearms during a dedicated ML season. That combined with the fact that bears seem to "learn" that the sound of gunfire means food, a serious discussion on backup ML weapons should be allowed to continue.
Now, if the traditional firearms were so unreliable, the trappers, mountain men, explorers, and settelers would have been killed enmass and the grizzes would have never been driven to the brink of extinction by the end of the 18th century.
Though I have never been fortunate enough to hunt or hang out in "bear country", from what I have read and seen on the idiot box, the 12 ga. seems to be carried alot as a bear deterent. if this is true ( you guys that do hang in bear country please chime in) then a 12 ga. howda loaded w/ buck and ball would seem like a good fit to the problem of bears @ close quarters

Again, PLEASE, lets keep this discussion on point and with in the focus of this forum

COD

 

[jmforge]

If how they look in pictures are any indication of quality, I would spend the extra shekels and buy the Pedersoli howdah pistol. I knowthat the Middlesex is a lot cheaper, but to use guitar parlance, it looks like a bit of a "cheese log".
Of course, the ultimate howdah pistol might be a "semi custom" cut down from the Pedersoli .72 caliber Kodiak double rifle, but that would be pricey and even more so if you couldn't find a used pistol grip stock Cabelas version of the gun. It would also be a pretty brutal recoiler, but if a coastal brownie is bent on turning you into a grease spot, I'm not sure that is a big concern..:grin: Maybe a used .58 caliber Cabelas Kodiak cut down to size and loaded with Minie balls would do the trick.

 

[BrownBear]

I had the same reaction to the photos. They look a little rough, so that's why I was asking about reliability.

I've handled but not shot a Pedersoli howdah, and I was sincerely impressed. It balanced in the hand better than I expected and just felt like it "wanted" to be shot.

And I'll tell you for sure, the bears seem bigger than life when there's nothing between you but blue sky. And when they've got their pointy end aimed in your direction, you just can't believe how fast they are. Feels like you stepped in front of a bus on the freeway.

A "backup" pistol is kind of academic in my experience, because if you're carrying it halfway securely, you just aren't going to have time to get off a shot with your rifle, then switch to a pistol. But hope springs eternal and I like the idea of carrying a muzzleloading pistol rather than one of my modern ones.

Whatever you're packing, it's likely to be used at hair smoking range. And if you get off a second shot it's going to be a finisher on a downed bear. You're sure not going to get off a rifle shot and two pistol shots at a midair bear.

 

[jmforge]

Of course, another alternative would be to start by getting a double rifle to carry when venturing into bear country :grin:

 

[BrownBear]

Of course, another alternative would be to start by getting a double rifle to carry when venturing into bear country :grin:

That certainly occurred to me as that sow closed in! I'm looking at the "howdah" approach simply because I haven't found the right 72 cal double yet, and would want to carry other rifles at times, too.

Anyone got any firsthand experience with the double 62's? I'm looking for practical feedback about loads, carry and reliability rather than whether or not to carry.

 

[Bearbait2]

Mr. BrownBear,
Our experience is with the Pedersoli .62cal.
It is heavy to carry but manageable. Properly loaded it has proven to be very reliable. Loads we have shot so far are reasonably soft in recoil.
Our two topics posted in the "Pistol" forum (page 2) state velocity achieved. When time and weather permit, more load development to follow.
Good luck in your quest.
Best Wishes

 

[oletymepreacher]

The Pedersoli Howdah is both fun to shoot and relatively accurate at short range. I pack it when horse riding, having sewn a holster to ride in front of the pommel. It will be used for bear if needed. But, our bears in Colorado are not the grizzlies you have. The pistol balances well once you will get used to its weight. Its power with about 40 grs. fffg is a little more than the 45 Colt loaded with black powder. Certainly enough to sicken a black bear, as the 45 works. Dixie sells a belt holster for the Howdah. I wouldn't recommend buck and ball-not enough barrel length for decent penetration of all pellets. You will get higher velocity with a .600 ball. I've tried #2 buckshot, but its penetration is poor as well. More than 40 grs of powder just makes more noise with no substantial gain in velocity.

The .72 Pedersoli double is a powerful weapon. Two shots available with heavy bullets. I put two balls through a buffalo from 100 yards, hitting ribs on the way in and the way out. 90 grs. ffG. This rifle may be able to take more powder, but mine shoots well in the 80-90 gr range. Pedersoli doesn't publish maximum loads for their rifles, just recommended loads, which I have found to be the accuracy loads. The rifle will weigh over 10 pounds loaded with a sling. Getting a wide sling will help with carrying. The rifle is balanced well and I don't sling it while hunting. If you go this route, may I suggest you roll your own balls? Lyman makes the mould. Finding commercial balls that fit is frustrating.

Good luck with your hunting, and stay safe around the big guys.

 

[dyemaker]

How about a blanket rifle. Something like a rifle with a sawed off handle for quick handling. Just a thought.
http://www.longrifles-pr.com/mountaineer.shtml

 

[BrownBear]

Now we're talkin! That's the kind of info and practical experience I'm hoping to get. I'll be wandering over to the pistol section right now!

 

[dyemaker]

Well if that wouldn't do how about this? :haha:


http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20den/a%20dewalle%20freres%20gb.htm

 

[Freedom]

I have the 72Ped and I really like it. Sure makes you feel pretty well armed in griz country. I have read about guys using them on cape buffalo with huge boolits and gross overloads of powder...I was alway afraid of breaking my stock to try too much powder but it will sure flatten a whitetail with a RB and 80grs powder.

I have the 62 Ped Howdah and it is great fun!! I make holsters for them that are cross draw with a lot of cant...not too bad to carry this way with a heavy belt.
Penitration is nothing like a 475L but still a big piece of lead. Buckshot has very little penitration and the pattern makes it useless for most aplications. Smaller shot(6)with a modern shotcup carries a pattern real well for quite distance.
I shoot a lot with 75gr.3fff cause it is more reliable with 3f than 2f. Recoil is nothing like a modern handgun even with 2RBs and LOTS of powder... but the recoil of huge loads (the one most would never try and to prevent ill comments directed to me I won't mention) can cause a little trouble because of the grip shape you have to re-position for the second trigger.

I practice enough with mine that hits on a shotgun popper at 100yrds are fairly common.

I find it a little trouble to manage both triggers and both hammers in a backup situation, especially with one hand. I carry mine in a holster on the pommel of my saddle....its is hard to beat the thrill of chasing a jackrabbit accross the Montana plains with thundering hooves and the Howdah :thumbsup:

 

[jmforge]

As for heavy loads for the .72 Kodiak, I have heard of guys using 135-140 grains and conicals anywhere from 650 to 800 grains. There is a video on YouTube of a South African guy shooting at steel plates at 100 yards. One barrel was loaded with the 500+ grain round ball and the other was loaded with the 800 grain conical. He scored hits with both!! :grin: I think that he said he was getting 1350-1375 fps with the 800 grain slug with 135 grains of powder. That might get a bear's attention but it would sure get yours when you lit that thing off!!!!. :wink:

 

[jtmattison]

I was watching The Sportsman's Channel last night. On their show "Handguns" they featured a .577 caliber Howdah. It fired a 500 grain lead bullet with 70 grains of BP. At a few feet distance it blew up five out of seven or eight jugs of water exiting through the top of the last jugs. Strong medicine!

HD

 

BB,

Matt at North Star West can make you one of those NW blanket guns in up to 16 ga for a price. But if it were me hunting in coastal brownie habitat, I think I'd just get one of those Pedersoli double 12 ga slug guns with the rear sight and forget the back-up gun. Its got 25" smooth bore barrels and weighs 7 lbs. How far do you shoot moose and blacktails anyway? Its a lot of lead for a blacktail, but you won't be tracking them far. If you get one of those blanket guns, it'll be bouncing around on a strap and you won't have time to check the prime if you need it. The howda in a holster would be pulling your pants down or getting in the way of packstraps. The 12 ga would hurl two big .700+ round balls in a hurry and could take grouse with a shot load too. The upside of it is that its one gun for everything. The downside is that its one gun.

Here's a link. Its at the bottom.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=245&lang=en

Sean

 

[flintlock75]

Brown Bear,
I have shot the Ped .72 doubles with PRB and 120gr of 2f, recoil was not bad but those guns are heavy to carry around. Years ago i fitted a CVA double 12ga with lyman rifle sights, after some adjustments I got both barrels to shoot POA at 30 yards, at 50 yards the left barrel hits center of target, the right barrel is 1.5" right and 1" low. Plenty good accuracy for big game. I use a load of 100gr of 3F and a Patched .705 Ball.
I have not shot a bear with it yet, but i have shot shot Caribou and moose. It had devistating results on both animals and always went through, the exit wounds were the size of 2 fists. Bears are very fast when on the charge you are unlikly to have time to bring a second weapon to bear.

 

[luieb45]

I am just saying that I wouldn't risk my safety with a blackpowder weapon and use a modern one. There's a reason why the police and military use modern firearms because they are superior.

 

[longcruise]

I am just saying that I wouldn't risk my safety with a blackpowder weapon and use a modern one.

I agree Luie. I also understand the spirit of the forum, but, the topic is protection from bears while ml hunting.

A lot of these "back-up gun" threads get started revloving around hunting in PA or AZ or somewhere else where the need for a back up is just about nil. OTOH, Brown bear is at real risk every time he goes into the field with his ml.

He does not want to discuss modern weapons in his thread, but I'm just trying to put it into a practical perspective that would allow such discussion in the event that an ml hunter at real risk needed advice on the topic.