Bear Country Backup

[BrownBear]

I agree with your spirit, Marmotslayer. Folks without the constant exposure and long experience with grizzly and brown bear will be better served by a powerful modern handgun---- If they can actualy shoot the blessed thing and it's not just "liquid courage" in a belt holster. But that topic has been beaten to pieces many times here on the site and is available for anyone who's willing to search.

I choose not to use a modern handgun on my hunts. Heck, I'm much better off with a howdah because I've done all muzzleloader hunting for years without any backup at all.

I've got no end of big modern handguns and after many years of hunting exclusively with them, as well as high power competition, I shoot them well. But I've also got a more important ingredient--- 40 years in the bush with these great bears, earning both the experience and the judgement to avoid trouble most of the time. They are so common here they even come into our yard, and we seem to have one living real close right now. Heck I've even had one try to get into the corral with our horses. Try sorting that out without launching a horse through a fence!

I just figure if anyone cares enough about traditional hunting to criticize those who use conical bullets, they're a bit of a hippocrit if they're also packing six conicals in their belt for backup.

I've made up my own mind not to carry a modern backup, and I'm just too darned stubborn to backtrack. I sure would welcome learning more from those experienced in the use of howdahs. Their posts have been really useful to me, and I appreciate the effort they have taken to share.

 

BB,
How heavy a load do you think you'd use in one of those howd-itzers for a bear back-up gun? I haven't heard of anybody stuffing much more than 50gr down them. I'm sure I wouldn't notice the recoil of the bigger loads when I really needed it, but man I'd hate the practicing with a 100gr+ and 20 ga PRBs. Even then, I'd still wonder if I'd be getting enough velocity out of one of those stubby things and would want to get some chrono time. If nothing else the cloud of smoke and fire coming out of it might give you time to evade. :wink:

I like your comment about 'courage in a holster'. Being down south where the bears are smaller, I find that people who pack handguns around bears and cats tend to end up doing stupid things that they didn't need to. A fellow I know just shot a huge mtn lion (200 lbs) out of a tree in his yard out in the mountains because he was afraid it would kill the dog that had treed it... :youcrazy: He took out the big territorial male, which will soon be replaced with a stupid yearling who will actually cause trouble.

Good luck with your experiments Let us know if you pick up a Howda and how it does. And like I told a friend of mine currently doing research on polar bears, "try not to get mistaken for a skinny seal." :grin:

Sean

 

[BrownBear]

I'm right with you Sean. When I was a youth I guided in snake country and had a party that was completely weirded out about snakes, showing up with pistols on their belts and attitude in their hearts. I went far out of my way to keep them out of trouble. And before long they were digging around in the rocks and brush trying to FIND snakes. Before long they were taking "sound shots" at snakes in the bushes. By the end of the trip they were so distraught by the lack of snakes that they chewed me out and stiffed me on the tip. I see lots of that today in visitors worrying about bears and packing brand new pistols.


Windwalker, a fellow Alaskan also living in bear country, has been experimenting with his howdah, most recently reporting 910fps with 70 grains of 3f and manageable recoil. He and I might define "manageable" a little different than others, but he's got my attention. You can follow his experiences in this thread and others in the pistol section.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

haven't been in grizz territory but should opportunity present I would have a double rifle of large bore and a brace of pistols at least 50 cal loaded with slugs over stiff powder charge if not a 'howdah'.
quite unlike that yo-yo in Ak that got hisself and girlfriend eaten alive I would NOT 'be honoured to end up as grizzly scat' :shocked2:

 

BB,

Just to put that into perspective, I calculated some MV figures for his load and some modern stuff for comparison (not to suggest you carry the modern stuff). Windwalkers load, figuring a .600 PRB at 921fps, comes out at a fairly impressive MV of 42.6 ft-lb which is 54% more than a standard 45 ACP factory load (230gr at 837 fps). Its 4.4 ft-lb (8%) less than the standard .44mag load (240gr at 1350), but is 26% less than a 44 mag 'bear-load' with a 300gr bullet at 1340 fps. If I had to choose between the Howda and the 12 ga percussion double that I mentioned above, I think I'd go with the latter because of higher mass and hence MV numbers, but also because (unlike you) I am more confident with a long gun. Hope you never have to use either.

Sean

PS In my younger days I went camping once with a fellow who would never go outdoors without a machete. Dunno if it was because he was scared or what, but he was constantly whacking stuff with that thing and it got annoying. Probably not nearly as much as your 'snake hunters' bouncing bullets off rocks though. I'm sure like my camping trip with 'machete-man' it was never repeated even if they had tipped you.

Sean

 

[dyemaker]

quite unlike that yo-yo in Ak that got hisself and girlfriend eaten alive I would NOT 'be honoured to end up as grizzly scat' :shocked2:

Now you got me thinking. A man that puts up with a girlfriend that is actually meaner than a grizzly might easily be persuaded to take up bear hunting. Its a deathwish either way. I consider what may happen if I should fail, and then I hear a noise outside the cabin. I think 'what will happen if they get me?'.... Hopefully they will eat me!
:rotf:

This was meant as a joke. I have no desire to be bear scat either.

 

[jmforge]

Thats like the old joke about the elderly gentleman who goes to see his rabbi because he thinks that his wife is trying to kill him by poisoning his soup. The rabbi then talks with the wife and afterwards, he calls the husband back into his office. When the man asks what he should do, the rabbi says "eat the soup!" :grin:

 

[Jumpshot]

I have some Pedersoli pistols, all .62 smoothies...

With patched roundballs, I can get 1.5" groups at 15 yards using 30 grains 3F GOEX. I've tried up to 60 grains and found the recoil was not a problem.

 

[rkmeyer]

Jumpshot those there double pistols sure should do the trick. :surrender:
Dusty :wink:

 

[longcruise]

I choose not to use a modern handgun on my hunts. Heck, I'm much better off with a howdah because I've done all muzzleloader hunting for years without any backup at all.

BB, don't get me wrong. I was not suggesting what you or any other hunter should employ as the back up gun. I don't fault your choice in any way.

My post may have come across other than intended. What I was trying to say was that if an ml hunter wanted to discuss some kind of modern weapon to be employed while ml hunting in dangerous bear country, maybe it should be allowed in this forum since it could be very important to an ml hunter contemplating their first trip into bear country.

It kinda pulled the thread off topic, which was not my intent.

My back-up in (black bear) country is designed to take grouse with a minimum of meat damage. :haha:

OTOH, my back-up when I have to travel into heavily populated urban areas is a 1911. :haha: After looking at the pics of the Howdah, I think one of those could serve well in an urban environment, dangerous bear country and for quieting a blue grouse!

 

[BrownBear]

Now we're talking, Jumpshot. That's a right pert spread of howdahs!

And marmotslayer, I didn't take any offense. I've seen (and read) enough of the bear backup wars on centerfire gun sites that I know they'll only start controversy here. I'd recommend anyone wanting any more info on modern arms go to the Alaska Outdoor Directory site and read along.

I'm not sure I'd carry a howdah even after I get one, but what a great excuse for a new gun! I tend to travel pretty lean when hunting, so I'd have to find a really easy and comfortable way to carry one before it bacame a regular part of my field kit.

BTW- Hey Jumpshot, how do you carry one of those, much less three?

 

[Jumpshot]

...how do you carry one of those, much less three?

I don't. I've never carried one in the field yet, they've just been range guns so far. But Dixie sells a holster made for it...
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/produ...14178&osCsid=fb152510afbd5e621eab1c9fe88ca39f

 

[Blizzard of '93]

I am envious Jumper, even by todays standards any BG looking at the bizness end of one of those - why - those bores just get bigger and bigger! :shocked2:

 

[FishDFly]

When I was in Alaska we had the pistol backup discussion at some length. I asked the guide why he carried a pistol as I had heard that shooting a large bear was not always productive with a pistol.

He said that he is always the lead rider in the group of horses. He said that if a bear was going to attack the group, it would always go for the lead horse. He said that the horse would bolt on the attack and when the horse left, so did his rifle. He said that the pistol was for getting the bear off him.

I noticed that he carried the pistol in a totally enclosed holster. When asked about that, he said previously that he had an alder branch partially cock his pistol and the hammer dropped and he was shot in the leg, by a 44 Mag., thus a new holster was inorder. He said thank goodness it did not kill his horse.

If I were going to carry a backup pistol, I would ensure that there was no way that a limb or anything else could reach a hammer(s) and partially cock it and let the hammer drop.

RDE

 

[Bearbait2]

Gentlemen,
Along that train of thought, over the years we have experienced that one does not always have his/her rifle in hand. Necessities such as fishing, setting up camp, cooking, eating or answering a call of nature for instance but a handgun is always on our belt and therefore immediately available.
Will be making a belt holster (more than likely) for our Howdah. Will probably incorporate a strap that goes up and over the opposite shoulder (old military style) in an effort to keep it from pulling my pants down. Those individuals with a more moderate waist measurement might not find it necessary (the shoulder strap). Otherwise will make a "shoulder" holster that is suspended by a strap that goes across the chest and over the shoulder on the opposite side of where it is being carried.
In the mean time, we use it as a "horse pistol" and carry it strapped to Mule-et.
Lot of possibilities.
Best Wishes

 

[paulvallandigham]

YOu might consider a pouch holster that is strapped over your shoulder, like a quiver for a bow and arrows, or like the pouch that Mike Douglas used for his pump shotgun in the movie, " Romancing the Stone". I actually would prefer to carry a slightly longer barreled, stocked, DB shotgun in such a shoulder pouch as a back up piece, than the shorter barreled Howdah pistol. It does look like a fun gun to own and shoot, however. I would leave the bottom out of the shoulder pouch, to drain water, and remove the front sight so that nothing slowed or hung up pulling the shotgun out of that pouch.

I think the real advantage of hunting with any muzzle loading gun is the Roar of the gun, the long, wide Flame, and the huge Cloud of Smoke that belches out the muzzle at a bear. If anything is going to put a WHOA in his "giddyup", those will! I have not met anyone, or known of any animal that would take on fire.

Just something to think about. :thumbsup:

Paul

 

[Headhunter]

For one thing, you will never need any sort of backup. If you haven't needed one in the last 40 years, you won't the next 40. Chances are a man would be dead before they realize whats happening anyway. If you do need a back up, you will need a full size large caliber centerfire rifle or slug gun. Lots of guys think its best to drop a perfectly good 30-06 and yank out there 44 Mag for a charge. Crazy people out there without a clue.

Packing a percusion pistol is just playing or looking cool.

By all means, if you want to pack one and look cool, go for it, I do myself on occation. If you are serious about wanting a back up gun, smartly choose something different.

Pistols/Revolvers are the worst, but they are better than throwing rocks or using harsh language.

HH

 

[BrownBear]

Let's see...... California, Missouri,,, ah, Alaska? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

 

[Headhunter]

KISS MY...

Brownbear.

I guess Brownbear thinks a man has to LIVE in Alaska to hunt bears.

Funny.

HH

 

[paulvallandigham]

I know there are people who just never see anything coming, but I have never been one of them, Headhunter. So, please allow me to disagree with you about my own reaction timing.

I have pleasantly surprised myself, and several friends and family members over the years by my ability to "read" situations quicker, and act faster than other folks equally well trained. I have survived encounters with Armed thugs, on more than one occasion by my fast reaction. I am always surprised after the fact that I acted so quickly, and without hesitation.

However, I was trained to be Life Guard, and I early on found out that I saw people in trouble in the pool and acted before other life guards had even noticed that something was wrong.

I am the kind of guy that is running towards an explosion, fire, or accident, when everyone else is running away. I am sure this character flaw will get me killed some day, but I have survived a lot of "risky situations" in my 62 years, so far.

I have not had an encounter with any bear in the wild, Yet, so I can't say how I am going to react if such an event occurs. But, I stopped worrying about how I react, or how fast I react, a long time ago.

Years ago, I was honored when a shooting buddy of mine, a Deputy Sheriff, told me after a session on the shooting range, that he would much rather have me backing him up in any gunfight than any of the rest of the deputies that he worked with on his shift. I knew he had seen me shoot, because we had scored each others targets! But, I had never been in a life threatening situation before with him, and asked him why he thought I would be better as a back up?

He told me that he knew I knew the law of self-defense, and he knew I was extremely careful about how I handled firearms. He had watched me handle some of the rougher clients I represented in talking to them in the County jail, and the inmates had talked about their sparring sessions with me. I didn't know this, BTW. He thought from what he had heard that I think and act quick enough in any threatening situation- he knew my clients as well as I did---that he just believed I would take care of myself and him if the poop hit the air conditioner!

I have since been in many situations where 2-legged predators were sizing me up for dinner. Somehow, I have always managed to say the right thing, and do the right thing, to give them pause, and decide that dinner could wait for a more easily digestible meal! I consider it a Gift, and do not take advantage of it often.

I have been privileged to meet several other shooters who have been equally well Gifted. My Twin brother has the Gift, too.

So, let me carry a back-up gun, or carry a gun to back up another hunter, and I will do just fine. We can wash my pants later! :shocked2: :rotf: :hatsoff: