• Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.

    We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.

    Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103

Beaver Tail bags or Pouches?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I recall having seen pictures of a bag with the tail used for the flap, and pictures of the tail used for a knife sheath. The tail itself has some interesting "grain", and I bought a tanned XL for a knife sheath project that still hasn't happened.
 
You can live off of fresh meat provided you add fresh organ meat to you diet. The ascobic acid we need disappears quick after an animal is killed, so fresh is ok preseveed will cause scurvy.
Wild meat is fat short and the diet danger for people hunting for a living was lack of fat in the diet. Beaver tail is fat and grisil. It was tastier to people fat short then to ”˜chiefly proportioned’ hunters today.
 
That's a good find. And a great looking pouch! Love to see the detailing on the flap and especially the inside, but this is a heck of a good start.

Thanks!
 
How can you possibly question someone who says:

Early American Life magazine thrice named me one of the top craftsmen in America for both my paintings and my leatherwork.. My pouches were rated for their quality workmanship, fidelity to period design and construction techniques by judges expert in museum-quality antiques and fine, high-end reproductions. My work has also been featured in videos, tv documentaries and numerous times in magazines and on their covers.
?

Mind you, I don't begrudge a man who toots his own horn a bit but I think there is a difference between a horn and a steam boat whistle. :rotf:
 
With all due respect to his pouch craftsmanship - he doesn't make anything that couldn't replicated by almost anyone with a pair of scissors, needle & thread and a library card.

That said, it is my understanding that no bags of 18th century vintage survive today (I haven't seen any and have looked - If anyone knows of any extant pieces, please share), so any "reproduction" 18th century bag is speculative at best...
 
One original 18th Virginia bag was documented by Wallace Gusler in the December 2009 Muzzle Blasts(pp. 4-8). Though I cannot find that article on line, here is an article of a close repro. With text stating the differences from the original.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/05/mark-elliott-early-virginia-shot-pouch.html

Of course the problem it seems to me, would be copying this one bag exactly too many times and/or considering it the only way to make a period Shot Pouch.

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for the information. I'd be curious to see the original and its provenance.
 
Black Hand said:
Thank you for the information. I'd be curious to see the original and its provenance.

Part of a set of rifle, horn pouch, and bullet mold, I believe. Rifle dates to 1785 or thereabouts, and the whole kit and caboodle has been together as a set in the same family for as long as anyone can tell until Gusler purchased it. Interesting, interesting find, and yet while each individual piece has been written about at one point or another I don't believe that Gusler has ever shown the whole set in a single article.

There is pouch out there dated 1777, too - completely different design.
 
I've seen pictures of the original Shot Pouch that Mark copied on the Internet, but unfortunately could not find them for this thread. I have a tendency to think it was made by someone with at least some training in leather working and not just a home made pouch.

I would also really like to get more information on the other Shot Pouch that Mark mentioned in the article, as written below.

"So, I was fortunate to be able to study an original early Virginia pouch that matches the size and construction of another published (Clash of Empires exhibition catalog, p. 30) pouch known to date to the period of the French and Indian War."

Gus
 
Artificer said:
I've seen pictures of the original Shot Pouch that Mark copied on the Internet, but unfortunately could not find them for this thread. I have a tendency to think it was made by someone with at least some training in leather working and not just a home made pouch.

I would also really like to get more information on the other Shot Pouch that Mark mentioned in the article, as written below.

"So, I was fortunate to be able to study an original early Virginia pouch that matches the size and construction of another published (Clash of Empires exhibition catalog, p. 30) pouch known to date to the period of the French and Indian War."

Gus

He is referring to the Lyman pouch.
 
Black Hand said:
With all due respect to his pouch craftsmanship - he doesn't make anything that couldn't replicated by almost anyone with a pair of scissors, needle & thread and a library card.
Having done leatherwork for several years now, I "respectfully" disagree. Are you always this rude?


Black Hand said:
That said, it is my understanding that no bags of 18th century vintage survive today (I haven't seen any and have looked - If anyone knows of any extant pieces, please share), so any "reproduction" 18th century bag is speculative at best...
If no bags of 18th century vintage survived, then how do you know that beaver tail was not used in their construction? Because it wasn't recorded in a book?

That said, there are several in T.C. Albert's book that are dated to the 18th century.
 
Elnathan said:
Artificer said:
I've seen pictures of the original Shot Pouch that Mark copied on the Internet, but unfortunately could not find them for this thread. I have a tendency to think it was made by someone with at least some training in leather working and not just a home made pouch.

I would also really like to get more information on the other Shot Pouch that Mark mentioned in the article, as written below.

"So, I was fortunate to be able to study an original early Virginia pouch that matches the size and construction of another published (Clash of Empires exhibition catalog, p. 30) pouch known to date to the period of the French and Indian War."

Gus

He is referring to the Lyman pouch.

Thank you.

Black Hand,

Yes, the Lyman Pouch is a Belt Pouch.

Gus
 
The following link shows the Lemuel Lyman belt pouch as well as five other pouches that are or could be 18th century.
https://www.scribd.com/document/248435837/Sportsmen-Hunting-Part-II

One of the pouches, the black one with the button on the front, seems to be the pouch owned by Wallace Gusler, from looking them up in "Of Sorts for Provincials" by Jim Mullins.

The next "Hair Pouch" is listed as "Date Unknown," though shown as a type that could have been used by Dagworthy's Company of Marylanders. They turned in 8 such pouches in 1762 at the close of the FIW.

The next "more finished" black "Hunting Bag" is owned by Colonial Williamsburg and they have it conservatively dated as 1750-1850, as the style could have been made throughout that period.

Finally it shows two "Hunting Bags, Late 18th - Early 19th Century (Estate of Tom Wnuck)"

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Black Hand said:
With all due respect to his pouch craftsmanship - he doesn't make anything that couldn't replicated by almost anyone with a pair of scissors, needle & thread and a library card.
flattop44 said:
Having done leatherwork for several years now, I "respectfully" disagree.
Having done leatherwork in some form or another for 35 years, I can tell you it is possible. Perhaps you don't feel confident to attempt the project, but there are many others that are making bags of equal craftsmanship and a period-inspired bag is something the average craftsman could achieve.

Black Hand said:
That said, it is my understanding that no bags of 18th century vintage survive today (I haven't seen any and have looked - If anyone knows of any extant pieces, please share), so any "reproduction" 18th century bag is speculative at best...
flattop44 said:
If no bags of 18th century vintage survived, then how do you know that beaver tail was not used in their construction? Because it wasn't recorded in a book?
As one cannot prove a negative, all we have is recorded information upon which to base our knowledge. However, the reality is that if something was not recorded in a book, probate list, painting, sketch, drawing, manuscript or as a physical item (with documented provenance), then historically it does not exist. Something might come to light at a later date, but until it does, we must operate on the presumption that X did not exist...
 
I forgot about another extant hunting pouch that may be or even probably is 18th century or at the very least is in a style of the period.

Though I certainly realize the problems with documentation of some to many of the hunting pouches illustrated in Madison Grant's book, "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch," there is one very different pouch and horn set he illustrated that is very similar to the 1776 "Artists Interpretation" portrait of Captain Robert Rogers.

"This 1776 painting is the only known portrait of Robert Rogers from life and from the portrait painter's interpretation." http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw35493/Robert-Rogers

The pouch Madison Grant illustrated is reported to be 7" wide and 8" deep with a 2" wide strap.

Generally I am in very much agreement with Black Hand's fine description of an historically accurate or historically inspired pouch.

The problem as I see it, though, is most of the very few documented 18th century pouches seem to be what we would call a "Day Pouch," with the exceptions of the pouch mentioned above, the Lemuel Lyman Belt Pouch and perhaps the "Hair Pouch" listed in the 18th century Material Resource Center link. There is documentation that Maryland issued "hair pouches" to some of their troops during the FIW as they had to turn the remaining ones back in to Maryland during 1762. So this pouch perhaps may be more correctly seen as a "military issue" pouch, rather than a civilian hunting pouch.

Now of course a direct "bench made" copy of one of the very few 18th century documented pouches should be considered historically "correct." I would also add that some variation to one of the original pouches should be considered historically correct as long as it is made with 18th century techniques and style.

However, I have to admit I wonder about original 18th century pouches that did not survive the years of use? "Day Pouches" like some/most of the few originals that did survive, were more likely to have survived because they were only used when a person went hunting “for the day” on or near his land and would therefore not require much space for anything but just the bare necessities for shooting the gun. Unless there was imminent danger, most likely these pouches and horns usually stayed inside the cabin or domicile while the man engaged in farming or other activities. There was no reason to have room for more than a few shots for the gun and no reason to have any “survival gear” as we use the term today, though I can see how a flint and steel kit would fit into some of the original pouches along with the other gear.

IOW, I wonder about the original pouches carried by those on the Frontier who went out for longer hunts of a few days to perhaps a couple of weeks, as game got scarce around their area? Perhaps, if not probably, they carried pouches that were a bit larger than the Day Pouches to carry items that were not directly needed to shoot a gun for a few shots? Of course, one could still stay in the general dimensions of the period pouches and add a gusset or even a double pouch to carry more than the minimal items needed to fire the gun for a few shots.

My personal favorite 18th century style pouch I made is actually styled after a Militia Pouch that has enough room for and I made a removable cartridge block for it. When not using the removable cartridge block in the pouch, I have plenty of room for anything I might wish to carry and still get my big “paws” into it to find something.

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Artificer said:
However, I have to admit I wonder about original 18th century pouches that did not survive the years of use?

One of my youthful chores was caring for all the gear in our tack shed. That included everything horsy you can imagine, and some of it was documented at over 100 years old. The old stuff was beyond use, but sentiment demanded it receive care. Had to be REAL careful with it, or it would crack where the saddle soap and neatsfoot oil didn't penetrate. Seams were especially fragile because that old linen thread just got real tired.

Daily use bags versus occasional use bags over 200 years old? Easy for me to see that the daily use stuff just flat gave up the ghost and was tossed simply because there was nothing special about it. Something rarely used or sentimental got more care and less wear and tear, so had at least a small chance to survive, especially if it was overlooked in a dark corner for a century or two.

I'm of course curious about anything that survives. But I have to stop about 4 blocks short of saying it's anything close to daily use gear based on my own experience with leather goods.

The showy saddles with a little silver on them survived in our tack shed. But the stuff used every day on the range got tossed unless my range marshal ancestor happened to use it in his career tracking down rustlers and sometimes shooting it out with them. Of course, there's a huge dose of unease in that bit of history, cuzz often the rustlers were family and friends. To this day you gotta be a little careful who you're talking to and how you talk about a glorious shootout with blood on the ground or decades in prison. :grin:
 
IOW, I wonder about the original pouches carried by those on the Frontier who went out for longer hunts of a few days to perhaps a couple of weeks, as game got scarce around their area? Perhaps, if not probably, they carried pouches that were a bit larger than the Day Pouches to carry items that were not directly needed to shoot a gun for a few shots? Of course, one could still stay in the general dimensions of the period pouches and add a gusset or even a double pouch to carry more than the minimal items needed to fire the gun for a few shots.

Or....they just carried any extra tools, etc., in their saddlebags. :grin:
 
Back
Top