Beginner build questions

[Vatrucker]

Hi all I'm new to the forum. I have a few questions regarding my first build. I'm looking for a rifle for deer hunting here in va but there are a few things I want and need suggestions for what to build. Iv been looking at kits from tow and read that there is a lot of fitting work to be done so I'm thinking that I'm better off with an in the white kit. I want the gun to be accurate to 2-300 yards, I'm thinking .45 will be good for deer. It needs to be percussion and I want to fit it with a malcolm scope. The only hitch is I would like to have a full stock. I'm thinking a hawken with a green mountain barrel with the fast twist for conical bullets. But can I full stock a hawken?? Any other suggestions are welcome

 

[don hepler]

A lot of questions, to try to answer. When you say "Hawken" are you referring to a Thompson Center with a drop in Green Mountain barrel, with a 1 in 24 or 28 which ever it is. The GM barrels are getting harder to find, since they stopped making them. Fitting a full stock to a Thompson Center Hawken, might be a chore. A rifle in the white, such as a Tip Curtis, is put together to the point, that you could shoot it as it comes. But, with the barrel and stock having no finish, it really doesn't take a lot of effort to make it look, really nice. Look under "photos" section and you will see my Tip Curtis rifle, that I finished. I can't say that I've ever seen a full stocked rifle with a Malcolm style scope. There are usely seen on half stocked rifles. 200 to 300 yard is a long way with a black powder rifle. Even an inline with 150 grains and a sabot 240 grain bullet when sighted at 100 yards, has a 14" drop at 200 yards. I can't even imagine 300 yards.

 

[necchi]

there are a few things I want and need suggestions for what to build.

With the desires you have there is really no need to follow a particular school of build.
It does not need to be a "Hawken" or Kentucky, or Pennsylvania or early or late anything.

Just get the components you want and put it together.
A Build is a Build. Do what you want.

Why not buy a rifle and replace the barrel?

All you have to do is find out what barrel and bullets you need for 200-300 yard accuracy, drill it for scope mounts and screw it into the parts you have.
easy-peasy

 

[Vatrucker]

I understand that it is not going to be period correct or anything . The full stock was because of the looks. I have a cabelas hawken I could replace the barrel on iv had it 10 years. The lock and trigger aren't the best tho but still work. I'm not a fan of in-lines, it's kinda like cross bows I'm just not a fan. So it would be nice to have an accurate traditional style gun to show up my inline buddies lol. I could shoot a half stock just the same though. The main thing for me is the accuracy, I see where guys are shooting 1000-1500 yards with a ml understanding that's a whitworth but I don't have that kind of cash so I figured 2-300 yds was a pretty achievable goal, am I wrong on that??

 

[44-henry]

I think your quest is possible, but not all that practical. Lots of muzzleloading target rifles have been built over the years that are capable of good accuracy at extended ranges, but they are typically used at known distances, something that is difficult to know for sure in a hunting situation.

Even on the prairie here in North Dakota I have shot most of my deer at 100 yards and less and since most of my modern hunting is done with handguns these days shots under 50 yards are much more common to me. I have shot deer at much longer ranges, but that was with more modern equipment and frankly I have lost the desire to do that type of hunting.

If you really are set on using a muzzleloader for long range hunting I would suggest exploring an underhammer design for both simplicity and economy while still staying traditional. If you do decide to do this type of hunting make sure you are well practiced and 100% sure of the capabilities of your rifle and sight settings at a variety of ranges before you go into the field. If you can't be certain of a clean kill you shouldn't take the shot.

 

[necchi]

Wanna get real about it?
Check out not only the topics but the posts by member Idaho Ron. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/dosearch.php?uid/11040/search_user/topic/

This man is a real about 200-300yrd accuracy.
You can do that or just keep dreamin.

 

[alex efremenko]

The question I have is:
Does a.45 have enough a$$ to cleanly kill at 300 yards??

 

[kaintuck]

SOUNDS like something to wound a animal with....

 

[paulab]

A 500 grain conical will go clean through a 6 inch thick pine tree at 1000 yards. [Seen it many times in the pits at L.R. matches.] Would I ever try to shoot a deer with one at 300 yds? Never. With about a 1 second flight time and wind drift to deal with, combined with probably little or no practice shooting at mid-range distances, your chances of missing or wounding a deer are great. cheers Paul

 

[Rifleman1776]

The question I have is:
Does a.45 have enough a$$ to cleanly kill at 300 yards??

Wrong forum for that question.
However, if you want to hunt at those ranges, get a .300 Win. mag.
Muzzle loaders are an antique, and, if it weren't for us, an obsolete shooting system.
Answer: If you hit the deer with proper placement at that range, probably. But hitting the target would be a one in a zillion luck thing. Don't try it.

 

[gunmaker43]

Drop the last zero.....Tom

 

[Rifleman1776]

I figured 2-300 yds was a pretty achievable goal, am I wrong on that??

For a patched round ball ml rifle, in a word: Yes.
Using slugs, minie, and such the trajectory would be rainbow like. Meaning the bullet would be falling down not going at the target. Off on the exact range by inches and the bullet would fall next to the animal.

 

[necchi]

The question I have is:
Does a.45 have enough a$$ to cleanly kill at 300 yards??

IMHO, Nope.
Think about it,
(cleanly kill is the key phrase)
If it did,, it would be common knowledge and there would be forums or forum topics that discuss the virtues of the long range 45, :idunno:
I for one haven't seen or heard of above virtues short of the bench guns that punch paper at long range. If you do research on that topic I think you'll find out it's a 30" bulls eye with a 4' 10 ring

 

[Vatrucker]

Guess I was wrong. Iv seen several claims of 1000 yard accuracy with ml firearms and claims of high energy in rounds down range at 500+ yards. As for the comments of non practice and lack of preparation on my part I do not appreciate them. I have access to a 300 yard range on my family farm and can practice regularly. I would also never do anything to wound an animal of provide a less than clean kill. I have shot deer at over 300 yards with modern rifles all I'm looking for us another challenge and apparently this one is not practical. For those who responded kindly thank you for you input.

 

[Billnpatti]

Whoa! Stop right there. If you are planning to shoot at animals at 200 to 300 yards, don't waste your money on a muzzleloading rifle. A muzzleloading rifle is a 100 yard gun. The ballistics on them is such that they loose most of their kinetic energy after about 150 yards and then, you are just going to wound the animal. If you want to shoot at those ranges, buy a modern .270 or .308. When hunting with a muzzleloading rifle, think of taking your game at nearly archery ranges. No animal should be shot at with a muzzleloading rifle beyond 100 yards. If you are not a good enough hunter to be able to stalk to within 100 yards, then maybe a muzzleloading rifle is not the gun for you. You need a modern centerfire rifle. But, if you are a real hunter and have what it takes to stalk up close to your prey before taking a shot and are ethical enough to pass up those shots that are beyond 100 yards, you may be a muzzleloader hunter. :thumbsup:

 

[Wes/Tex]

What's being said is basically true if we're talking about patched round balls. Because of their ballistic shape and lack of weight to diameter, they shed velocity quickly and you'd be dealing with a trajectory similar to a rainbow or mortar round a long range. Muzzleloading target rifles shooting long, often pre-cast and shaped projectiles is a whole 'nother story. Many of these guns did truly amazing work a century and half ago, but we're also talking about closely weighed and sometimes paper patched bullets, 15 to 30 pound rifles, false muzzles and special adjustable rear and front sights, etc. Even the military, especially England, got into the act with specially built sniper rifles from Enfield, Whitworth and others. These type rifles can do the job past 400 yards but an original or copy would be difficult to hunt with. Even some modern muzzleloaders could make the shot with special shots but the odds would be against the shooter. the whole thing boils down to wind drift and trajectory, which would be in feet rather than inches.

 

[Vatrucker]

Billnpatti, I have been ml hunting for just over 10 years with my traditional hawken, I also own several modern rifles and a 270 is one of them, actually my favorite I have taken several deer at long and short range with it. I also archery hunt so as for the real hunter comment I believe I qualify as I have watched far more game go by because of poor shots or because I had already put enough meat in the freezer and just wanted to watch and learn from them.

Wes/tex, I was more talking about a shaped bullet than a patched rb. But it seems pretty evident from the response iv gotten that this idea is not possible. It was merely a thought to try to put a new challenge in my hunt but thanks to all obthe advice consider the idea squashed

 

[Zonie]

If you want to add to the challenge consider getting a flintlock.

Better yet, get a flintlock smoothbore trade rifle.

Although some do use them for greater distances I would limit the range to 50 yards.

This gives you the challenge of getting close enough for the shot like bow-hunting, setting the flint and keeping the prime in the pan fresh and the uncertainty that goes along with the primitive sight(s).

If it's a clean hit in a vital area the 20 guage roundball will do the rest.

That sounds challenging to me.

 

[bpd303]

I also love challenges...however trying to track a wounded deer after a 300 yard hit would not be one of them. Glad you have decided to squash the idea.

BTW welcome to the forum...you're in for some excellent advice, whether asked for or not. :wink:

 

[don hepler]

Buy a flintlock, shoot a deer at 50 yards, show us the pictures, we'll be impressed.