Belgian Made Trade Gun?

[Cosmoline]

I've found a little bit about this thing but not much. It may or may not be one of the Belgian made "elephant" trade guns. They want $550 for it. It seems pretty crude, but the barrel wall thickness impresses me very much. The buttplate looks deeply painful. Yet somehow the madness speaks to me. Should I say "you're too expensive"?

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

That's what it is--a cheap Belgian trade gun. That lock is a real piece of work! And you are looking at the nicest part of it. I've never seen one of these where the inside was finished off any more than was necessary to make it work. These guns were made up as cheaply as possible and sold to people desperate for a gun. That is a lot of money for a crude gun like this with a beechwood stock and a level of quality and finish that would make even the worst garbage Jukar ever turned out look like a jewel. Compared to these things, one of the Indian made guns is a rare prize. And if you've ever seen one of those, they leave a little bit to be desired in the fit and finish department.

Check out what that money will buy you in terms of a quality used gun or what saving up and adding to it will get you. No way you can ever get your money out of one of these things, as those who get stuck with them usually find out too late.

 

[Cosmoline]

The trouble is nobody seems to have a kit for anything of that magnitude.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You mean the bore size?

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, exactly. That's at least an 8 bore. From my searches the nice quality offerings, complete or in kit form, are just not that big. There's a lot of really neat stuff available and I'm having fun with a .54 smooth rifle now, but I need something really fricking huge to take afield up here. I get nervous having only one shot. I need extreme roundball prejudice.

Maybe a used Pedersoli Bess? But even that may not be big enough.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

What is the biggest/most dangerous game you are likely to run into, and what is the biggest bore your state allows for hunting? Some states draw the line at ten gauge or .775".

 

[Cosmoline]

Brown bears. I'm in Alaska, I should have said.

I've been researching the idea of an English Sporting Rifle or Jaeger kit, but much beyond .62 cal and you start running into difficulties even finding a stock big enough. Plus the expenses mount real quick and you can get up past a grand with a custom barrel plus a big stock blank and parts. Not sure I'm up to that level of complexity in a build yet, either.

The problem seems to be that the vast majority of smoke pole shooters are interested primarily in the smaller bore weapons of .54 or under, plus fowlers that come in up to 12 ga but have pretty thin walls and aren't designed for amped up roundballs.

But I'll keep searching. I appreciate the input.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

A stoutly built ten bore should do the job, but you'll need a barrel from a custom maker. October
Country might be a good source. A nice hard piece of plain walnut or maple isn't that much money, and the rest is fairly straight forward. It is doable.

 

[sundog]

How can you resist ? Yes it is crude but it was made to take down large dangerous African game. Another thing that comes to mind is Alaska prices are generally quite a bit higher than the lower 48 so perhaps $550 is a good deal.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm not trying to encourage you at all, but that is one of the nicest African trade guns I have ever seen. You might want to make sure the lock sparks before you even consider this.
I don't know about Alaska, but in the lower 48 the largest smooth bore legal is a 10 for hunting.

 

[Mike Brooks]

AND....you might want to shoulder that thing to make sure it has a shootable architecture, you may not even be able to get on the stock....very pain full if shot with a heavy load I'm guessing.

 

[romeoh]

Brown bears. I'm in Alaska, I should have said.

I've been researching the idea of an English Sporting Rifle or Jaeger kit, but much beyond .62 cal and you start running into difficulties even finding a stock big enough. Plus the expenses mount real quick and you can get up past a grand with a custom barrel plus a big stock blank and parts. Not sure I'm up to that level of complexity in a build yet, either.

The problem seems to be that the vast majority of smoke pole shooters are interested primarily in the smaller bore weapons of .54 or under, plus fowlers that come in up to 12 ga but have pretty thin walls and aren't designed for amped up roundballs.

But I'll keep searching. I appreciate the input.

:hmm: Just loud thinking now...
If even the stock is a problem. And you need a real big caliber...
Wouldn´t a simple underhammer be an option?
Basically you need a buttstock, a barrel of your choice, a spring that will act as trigger guard too, and a hammer and a trigger.
We got a lot of fine builders here. It may cost a little more, sure. But you´ll end up with a reliable gun that fits your needs. :thumbsup:
You could even try on your own to build one, guess an underhammer isn´t the hardest to start up with.
Or ask about ordering it in the white from a builder and enjoy finishing your custom-gun on your own plus saving a little money. :wink:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

If I were really concerned with protection from bears I certainly would not consider trusting to something like that! It hardly matters how big the bore may be if it won't fire 100% of the time.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Didn't Dixie Gun Works sell those locks years ago?

Rod

 

[Cosmoline]

Do you know what the lock is called? I've never seen anything like it.

I've looked into underhammers and there are some good kits out there. But again if I'm trying to get into this bore range the price sky-rockets quickly. Plus I'm really wanting a flintlock.

OTOH if that thing is going to blow up on me I obviously want to steer clear. I can't find out much about these guns though other than they were possibly Belgian backstock that had been built earlier in the 20th century for natives in Africa, but ended up getting offloaded to US shooters in the early days of ML after WWII. Is that about right?

AK does have an anti-punt gun law banning "shotguns" larger than 10 gauge. But that's to keep people from knocking out flocks. Esp. if you're hunting with a ML they want you to go bigger, not smaller. The restricts are the other way around and ban big game hunts with small calibers.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Kind of a quasi-Miquelet lock, except the mainspring is internal. Now that I think about it, I think DGW called it a Lazareto lock or some such name.

By the way, although those African trade guns really get panned now, just wait for a number of years. The NW gun used to get the same reaction years ago, they were just thought of as pieces of junk. They should, however, be thought of as trade guns, and, as such, pieces of a fascinating history of trading firearms to indigenous peoples. They've got a history behind them, just as the NW gun, the Carolina gun, or any other gun made up specifically for trade with the natives.

The prices will go up on those, but it may take some time. In Buck Connor's book on the NW gun, "Success in the Fur Trade", he notes his father wishing he'd bought more NW guns at the enormous price of $8. Will we think the same way about those African trade guns some day? Probably.

Rod

 

[silverfox]

Why don't you look up (The Gun Works) in Oregon. They make up to 4 bore not cheap but if they make them they might be able to steer you in the right direction for parts. Barrels won't be cheap but they may be of known quality. I personally would not want to shoot anything of that size from the shoulder. Even a light load of powder would be punishing when you think of the weight of a ball that big.
I go along with Coyote I wouldn't want to be in the situation you are talking about with a Flintlock rifle. It"s close and damp up there and not a good place to be harassing big bears will only one shot.
I liked the idea of a underhammer I think they were making them up to 8 bore if you wanted a big bore that should be big enough to bruise you shoulder and kill anything on the Planet. Fox :thumbsup:

 

[romeoh]

I've looked into underhammers and there are some good kits out there. But again if I'm trying to get into this bore range the price sky-rockets quickly. Plus I'm really wanting a flintlock.

:grin: Link

:hatsoff:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The prices may go up but the guns will still be manure. The Northwest trade guns became more valuable because they had a ton of history behind them and the new guns were well made. And the original guns were made better than these cheapo Belgian guns.

These Belgian guns were made to capitalize on the resurgance of interest in muzzleloading in the U.S.A. and were made up of whatever parts were lying around. Historically speaking, they are non-entities. Maybe if you are an African native and local legend has it that your grandpa saved the village from a rampaging aardvark using one of these guns, there might be some historical value in them. Otherwise, not so much. Given their quality and workmanship, $150.00 is a generous offer for one of these things and then only if you are a collector of the dregs of muzzleloading repros. Or, if you are like the original target market, and just need a gun and any old gun will do. Because this is certainly just any old gun!

 

[tg]

If you want a good Bear gun buy a India made large bore and load it up very heay and let the bear shoot it....