Bess & Charleville disassembly & deep cleaning

[Artificer]

1st thing, I would check all external screws to see they are at least snug, Cock screw was not even snug! Bridle screw was not even hand tight!

It is not surprising at all for the Bridle Screw and/or the Sear Screw NOT to be tight in a lock, because if they were, then they would cause the parts to bind up. This is because the length and stopping point of the threads are not "timed" or cut/adjusted so they stop tight and the underside of the head of the screw has a little space (often no more than .001" to at most .003") between it and the surface it tightens toward.

Clear as Murky Water or Mud? Yeah, I know, allow me to explain it a bit differently.
​

When reassembling a lock and you have just the cock (or hammer) and tumbler in place, you next are going to put the bridle over the tumbler. I often stone the flat side of the bridle that goes over the tumbler and sear a few strokes to get rid of burrs with a White Arkansas Stone (only use an India Stone first, if the surface is really rough). NO need or desire to stone/polish the whole surface smooth, though, just get rid of the burrs.

Now tighten down the bridle screw in place and see if the tumbler moves freely without binding. NORMALLY it will bind up if the screw is tightened down fully. The normal thing to do is unscrew the bridle screw just a tad until the tumbler moves freely. By unscrewing the bridle screw a tad, you are opening up the space between the bottom of the head of the screw and the surface it tightens against on the bridle. This is something one has to do often even on original M1861/63 Springfield Musket lock parts that were held to a higher state of parts interchangeability than most of today’s replica locks. (On the original locks I’ve worked on, only the higher/highest quality locks had bridle and tumbler screws that could be tightened down fully and not bind up the parts under them.)

Now if you want to go to the time and trouble of ensuring the bridle and sear screws can be tightened down and not bind the parts under them, here is what you have to do. Gently lock the screws into a drill press or even a good electric drill chuck and leave enough room between the chuck jaws and underside of the screw heads where you can get a fine cut file between them with a little room to spare. You want a “safe” or smooth edge of the file to go against the body of the screw because you only want to take a little metal off the underside of the screw head. Run the drill press or electric drill at rather slow speed and press/file the underside of the screw head as it turns. Take a little metal off at a time and try it on the bridle and take more as necessary until the screw will just tighten down without binding. At that point, de/burr where you filed and the underside of the head of the screw (if not the entire screw – which is what I normally do) must be case hardened because you probably had to file through the original surface hardening.

The same procedure is used on the underside of the sear screw head, though that normally takes a little more work than the bridle screw.

Again, this procedure is not really necessary for a production lock, but I like to do it on my own guns. This because the bodies of the screws after case hardening cause the parts around them to sometimes operate more smoothly and they will not surface wear as much as unhardened screws.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

It is not surprising at all for the Bridle Screw and/or the Sear Screw NOT to be tight in a lock, because if they were, then they would cause the parts to bind up. This is because the length and stopping point of the threads are not "timed" or cut/adjusted so they stop tight and the underside of the head of the screw has a little space (often no more than .001" to at most .003") between it and the surface it tightens toward.

Clear as Murky Water or Mud? Yeah, I know, allow me to explain it a bit differently.
​

When reassembling a lock and you have just the cock (or hammer) and tumbler in place, you next are going to put the bridle over the tumbler. I often stone the flat side of the bridle that goes over the tumbler and sear a few strokes to get rid of burrs with a White Arkansas Stone (only use an India Stone first, if the surface is really rough). NO need or desire to stone/polish the whole surface smooth, though, just get rid of the burrs.

Now tighten down the bridle screw in place and see if the tumbler moves freely without binding. NORMALLY it will bind up if the screw is tightened down fully. The normal thing to do is unscrew the bridle screw just a tad until the tumbler moves freely. By unscrewing the bridle screw a tad, you are opening up the space between the bottom of the head of the screw and the surface it tightens against on the bridle. This is something one has to do often even on original M1861/63 Springfield Musket lock parts that were held to a higher state of parts interchangeability than most of today’s replica locks. (On the original locks I’ve worked on, only the higher/highest quality locks had bridle and tumbler screws that could be tightened down fully and not bind up the parts under them.)

Now if you want to go to the time and trouble of ensuring the bridle and sear screws can be tightened down and not bind the parts under them, here is what you have to do. Gently lock the screws into a drill press or even a good electric drill chuck and leave enough room between the chuck jaws and underside of the screw heads where you can get a fine cut file between them with a little room to spare. You want a “safe” or smooth edge of the file to go against the body of the screw because you only want to take a little metal off the underside of the screw head. Run the drill press or electric drill at rather slow speed and press/file the underside of the screw head as it turns. Take a little metal off at a time and try it on the bridle and take more as necessary until the screw will just tighten down without binding. At that point, de/burr where you filed and the underside of the head of the screw (if not the entire screw – which is what I normally do) must be case hardened because you probably had to file through the original surface hardening.

The same procedure is used on the underside of the sear screw head, though that normally takes a little more work than the bridle screw.

Again, this procedure is not really necessary for a production lock, but I like to do it on my own guns. This because the bodies of the screws after case hardening cause the parts around them to sometimes operate more smoothly and they will not surface wear as much as unhardened screws.

Gus

Thank you Gus! Excellent advise and yes, it makes perfect sense. I have de-burred the tumbler. It was rouogh as cob on the boss that contacts the lock plate. Had what looked like welding slag all over it. that is what cut the gouges into the lock plate. I did use a India stone, as it was hard, and rough. Finished with whit hared Arkansas stone. I will probably adjust the bridle, tumbler fit as you suggest, after cleaning threads of plate and screw well with Alcohol just put a small drop of purple lock-tite on the screw. It is made for disassembly parts. I've used it a lot on unmentinable guns over the years. And, yest, I agree they will need watching/checking while shooting. I do have a small safe side file, so I could use the drill press to remove a small amount from the underside of the screw heads. Could also be done with true straight edge and emery paper on head only underside only.
As I have already put the bridle, sear, tumbler together to check progress, I quickly discovered why that screw was loose. The Cock, tumbler screw was very loose originally, not eve really hand snug, cocking would almost surely caused it to loosen/tighten more. The cock screw should be able to be tightened without binding anything. Correct?

 

[FlinterNick]

I make my own screws from blanks, I always make sure they're not past the length of the last thread for a perfect fit, then harden until a file can't grip it. The pressure point screws see the most wear, sear, frizzed and tumbler. Tumbler screws are hard to make or find copies of unfortuatly.

 

[PluggedNickel]

I make my own screws from blanks, I always make sure they're not past the length of the last thread for a perfect fit, then harden until a file can't grip it. The pressure point screws see the most wear, sear, frizzed and tumbler. Tumbler screws are hard to make or find copies of unfortuatly.

If I do hone the screw heads, I will re-harden using propane torch and Brownells Surface
Harding Compound. I may get a round to that as well. It would be a more permanent fix, and I wouldn't have to worry about the screws tightening up, or getting too loose while shooting.
So you think your production gun is ready to rock and roll out of the box huh? Guess again huh? LOL

 

[PluggedNickel]

Nick and Gus, thanks for the tips and keeping an eye on me. Before I do something STUPID! Just one of the many reasons your on my follow list!

 

[Artificer]

The cock screw should be able to be tightened without binding anything. Correct?

Yes, that's correct.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Yes, that's correct.

Gus

If I do hone the screw heads, I will re-harden using propane torch and Brownells Surface
Harding Compound. I may get a round to that as well. It would be a more permanent fix, and I wouldn't have to worry about the screws tightening up, or getting too loose while shooting.
So you think your production gun is ready to rock and roll out of the box huh? Guess again huh? LOL

The production guns by Pedersoli are the top of the line you'll get in comparison to others. Its a shame miruko was bought out, they made some nicer Charlevilles, Springfields and Brown Bess's.

 

[PluggedNickel]

Hi Pluggednickle,
Good on you for working over your gun and working on the lock. A well functioning lock is a safety feature. I urge you to review my thread on reworking a Pedersoli Brown Bess because in the series I describe tuning the Bess lock and how to improve the geometry. Certainly, your French lock is different but the principles still apply. I also urge you to paint the barrel channel with a varnish thin coating of AcraGlas. The coating will seal the barrel channel and add considerably to the strength of the forestock. Just make sure you scrape a little space (very little needed) in the channel for the coating. It looks like you have a nice musket and well worth any efforts you make to keep in tip-top shape.

dave

Should I use one of those round scrapers you use, rather than sand paper?

 

[dave_person]

Should I use one of those round scrapers you use, rather than sand paper?

Hi,
Sandpaper will work fine. The round scrapers area little faster but the key is that you don't need to remove much. Just enough for a varnish thin coat in the barrel channel.

dave

 

[PluggedNickel]

Hi,
Sandpaper will work fine. The round scrapers area little faster but the key is that you don't need to remove much. Just enough for a varnish thin coat in the barrel channel.

dave

Thanks Dave, lock is coming along just fine, frizzen at 3 pounds now, very slick. I have been working on it when I feel like it, taking my time, makes it so much more enjoyable. Lots of burrs on barrel bands, going to fix that too. I used a .001” stainless steel shim used for AR-15 trigger pins to get relief from lock plate and frizzen cam. I had to sand out the center hole just a tad to get it on the 5M screw shaft. Reduced metal to metal contact and wear, just like the boss on the tumbler does. It is small and you can’t see it. Our secret, I didn’t tell the purist/traditionalists that would scoff at it. As if gunsmiths of old didn’t come up with such ideas as well.
Pedersoli used grease to seal barrel lock interface, I plan on using Beeswax. I didn't like the idea of petroleum gunk becoming fluid with heat, and having capillary action wick it up to the pan right at the vent hole!
I have been learning so much on this project. Great fun. Always appreciate you sharing your tips and experience!
I plan to seal the stock barrel contact groove with beeswax as well for about 18” ahead of the pan as well, if not the whole length of barrel. The accruglass will be a huge help protecting the wood below the barrel and strengthening it!
These guys that say they never break their guns down for a deep clean blow my mind. Makes me think, I don’t want to buy a used one, till I get a peek under that barrel! Many clean with water, hum, water and salt residue mix, wat could possibly happen up under that barrel? I’ll bet you’ve seen it all, horror stories galor, from re-enactors to bubba’s guns you’re repairing!
I know it is much more of a pain on the BESS to deep clean, one of the many reasons I went with the Charleville! Barrel pins can wear from take downs and reassembly and might may have to be replaced at some point, big deal huh?

 

[FlinterNick]

Thanks Dave, lock is coming along just fine, frizzen at 3 pounds now, very slick. I have been working on it when I feel like it, taking my time, makes it so much more enjoyable. Lots of burrs on barrel bands, going to fix that too. I used a .001” stainless steel shim used for AR-15 trigger pins to get relief from lock plate and frizzen cam. I had to sand out the center hole just a tad to get it on the 5M screw shaft. Reduced metal to metal contact and wear, just like the boss on the tumbler does. It is small and you can’t see it. Our secret, I didn’t tell the purist/traditionalists that would scoff at it. As if gunsmiths of old didn’t come up with such ideas as well.
Pedersoli used grease to seal barrel lock interface, I plan on using Beeswax. I didn't like the idea of petroleum gunk becoming fluid with heat, and having capillary action wick it up to the pan right at the vent hole!
I have been learning so much on this project. Great fun. Always appreciate you sharing your tips and experience!
I plan to seal the stock barrel contact groove with beeswax as well for about 18” ahead of the pan as well, if not the whole length of barrel. The accruglass will be a huge help protecting the wood below the barrel and strengthening it!
These guys that say they never break their guns down for a deep clean blow my mind. Makes me think, I don’t want to buy a used one, till I get a peek under that barrel! Many clean with water, hum, water and salt residue mix, wat could possibly happen up under that barrel? I’ll bet you’ve seen it all, horror stories galor, from re-enactors to bubba’s guns you’re repairing!
I know it is much more of a pain on the BESS to deep clean, one of the many reasons I went with the Charleville! Barrel pins can wear from take downs and reassembly and might may have to be replaced at some point, big deal huh?

The final model Brown Bess, actually called the new light infantry musket of 1808 was made with barrel keys. The British eventually began moving slowly toward the French and Springfield designs with reinforced flintlocks, water proof pans and barrel bands / keys. The Tower Ordance was just one stubborn armory, they loved their traditional Brown Bess Design.

Overtime the Arca glass and epoxy bedding will also shape and mold to the barrel. It’s also great for sealing up inlet areas just as long as you remove a slight amount of extra wood (like Dave mentioned), then mold cast to fit. It’s not authentic though, the authentic way was wax and or grease or a putty.

 

[Artificer]

I make my own screws from blanks, I always make sure they're not past the length of the last thread for a perfect fit, then harden until a file can't grip it. The pressure point screws see the most wear, sear, frizzed and tumbler. Tumbler screws are hard to make or find copies of unfortuatly.

This is for PluggedNickel,

Tumbler Screws AKA Cock or Hammer Screws are almost always threaded the entire length of the shaft of the screw and that is no problem. The only thing one should know is the head of screw is supposed to tighten down against the body of the Cock/Hammer. So the shaft should not be so long that the bottom of the shaft does not keep the head from tightening down against the body of the Cock/Hammer.

Gus

 

[Rat]

I didn't want to read through this whole thread, but noticed on the first page people talking about spraying down their locks with WD40. That WD40 will migrate up to the pan, and you will think your prime is "absorbing moisture from the air". I have experimented with this, and oil in general, especially penetrating oil will seep UP to your pan and kill your prime. If you have a low touch-hole, it can even get into there. Not an issue for target shooting, but not good for hunting. Use a fine thin grease on the lock parts, or very sparingly oil the moving parts and sear with TINY amounts of oil. Tiny drops, only where needed. Don't hose the lock off with oil, or WD40, and wipe off the excess.

And don't say I didn't warn you. !!!! (I know some will not like, or accept this)

 

[PluggedNickel]

I didn't want to read through this whole thread, but noticed on the first page people talking about spraying down their locks with WD40. That WD40 will migrate up to the pan, and you will think your prime is "absorbing moisture from the air". I have experimented with this, and oil in general, especially penetrating oil will seep UP to your pan and kill your prime. If you have a low touch-hole, it can even get into there. Not an issue for target shooting, but not good for hunting. Use a fine thin grease on the lock parts, or very sparingly oil the moving parts and sear with TINY amounts of oil. Tiny drops, only where needed. Don't hose the lock off with oil, or WD40, and wipe off the excess.

And don't say I didn't warn you. !!!! (I know some will not like, or accept this)

That makes perfect sense to me. I use a light coat of Mobil 1 synthetic grease on internals on BP revolvers. Will probably do the same with Charleville.

This is for PluggedNickel,

Tumbler Screws AKA Cock or Hammer Screws are almost always threaded the entire length of the shaft of the screw and that is no problem. The only thing one should know is the head of screw is supposed to tighten down against the body of the Cock/Hammer. So the shaft should not be so long that the bottom of the shaft does not keep the head from tightening down against the body of the Cock/Hammer.

Gus

Thanks, and yes mine does, you can see the print of the screw head on the cock. Odd that it was so loose when I received the musket.

 

[Artificer]

I'm guessing the reason they didn't tighten down the Cock/Hammer Screw was because they didn't want to risk damage to the screw slot and thus make the gun less esthetically pleasing for retail sales.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Tumbler screws are hard to make or find copies of unfortuatly.

Indeed, blank screws made for the gunsmithing trade don't have heads large enough for use as Tumbler/Cock/Hammer Screws. This is something I was very concerned with when I traveled with the USIMLT as the Team Armourer to the World Championships in 1996 and 1998.

What I did was buy a repro of almost every Cock Screw I could find, along with original Cock screws, to take along in case one might have been needed. I can't remember which World Championship it happened at, but I had to hand file/reshape and retap one repro screw, to replace an original that was lost in transit.

Gus

 

[PluggedNickel]

That makes sense as well. You were not going to cock it and not realize it was loose.

 

[FlinterNick]

That makes sense as well. You were not going to cock it and not realize it was loose.

The 1766 Charleville has a very large convex screw with a shallow base. The flintcock is flat and beveled too so this allows the wide base to fit very snug, later rounded models would use a smaller screw with a longer shaft.

Pedersoli probably just made the screw over sized slightly, not an uncommon thing with factory guns. The screws are probably not case hardened because the lock plate isn’t. A harder screw going into a softer thread could strip it out.