Best Bess

[ozark57]

I am starting to look for a good repro Brown Bess to use as a shooter. I don't want to build and I do want as period correct as I can get. I know there are several Italian made out there.Don't think I want one of those Indian made ones. Any recomendations on makes and dealers?

 

[Ranger1759]

Not sure who makes them, but Loyalist Arms has several styles of Bess's a good prices and good workmansship...They also shoot pretty good too..

 

[Curt LaManna]

Spend the extra $ and buy the Pedersoli Bess.
It's a much better made item than the Indian made junk being sold out of Canada.
There's a decent old stock one for sale on the sale board now with a bayonet and case for $800.

 

[Rock Island]

I have both a Pedersoli Harpers Ferry 1816, and one of the Middlesex Village Trading Co Indian made Long Land Bess's so I am familiar with the quality of both company's products. MVTCo and Loyalist arms get their guns from the same suppliers in India, Loyalist proofs their guns before sale, and MVTco will do it for a $50 fee ( you can do it yourself and save the fee) but otherwise the guns are identical. Both my Indian Bess, and my Pedersoli 1816 shoot very well, frizzens deliver a shower of sparks each time the flint strikes them, neither has required adjustment in any way. The pedersoli product looks like a product of a modern state of the art factory were every part is made by computers, despite it's ancient design it looks like a modern firearm, not one stray tool mark, perfect finish. The MVTco Bess looks slightly hand made, close look at the locks insides show tool marks from hand fitting, the brass furniture looks like it was cast by hand, and there are no Made In Italy stamps all over it. The Bess has a solid feel to it, amazed me when I was able to keep all of my rounds in a 1.5'x1/5' target at 75 yards with .735 ball and a thin patch 75 grains FG ( I am still getting used to shooting a weapon with no rear sight). I get similar performance from the Pedersoli muskets but with the manufacturing techniques used I had expected that. With a handmade musket I had expected less, and I got more, not a bad thing. The Pedersoli Bess is over a grand last I looked, at least priced new, the MVTco Indian Bess is $595 or so, for the money it's not a bad product. I only have a little less than 500 rounds fired through my Bess so who knows what it will be like when it's got 3-4 thousand or more, but as it's still solid, no buggered screws, loose hammers, worn lock parts, or stock cracks I have high hopes.
I own many Pedersoli products, pistols, rifle musket, and so on, all are excellent quality, and you should not be disappointed should you buy one. The Indian made muskets from Loyalist Arms, and MVTco are also of good quality, a good buy for the money if you don't mind slightly heavier teak stocks and that slightly hand made look. They shoot well, the frizzens are hardened, and guaranteed by the company should they fail or wear out. I have since bought the Bess ships carbine, and plan on buying the 1740 Potzdam musket in a few days along with a French pistol I like the looks of. I would not be dropping that kind of cash if I thought there were problems with these guns.
There are also Japanese made Bess's around, I have never owned one, and can't comment of their quality. My only experience with the Japanese made guns outside of modern Arisaka military rifles are the "Tower" pistols that were imported in the 1970's. I have two, one has a nice barrel and stock but total crap lock, soft frizzen, poorly designed lock as a whole. The other has a great barrel, very nice stock, and a fair lock with a soft frizzen that sparked for nine shots before it would spark no more. If this is indicative of the Japanese muskets as a whole then check the locks carefully on any Japanese musket you find.
Custom made would be the best, and most expensive, I would love to have one but can't see the expence for the casual plinking, and target shooting I do with my muskets.

 

[Mike Brooks]

keep a close eye on TOTW and Gunbroker. High quality 1st model besses assembled with Rifle shoppe parts pop up quite regularly. I got one from TOTW last year for less than the cost of parts.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Mike's source = #1 (the best)

Pedersoli and the old Japanese = #2 (good)

Indian made from all of the "Usual Suspects" = #10

(there are no #3 through #9)

 

[mikee51848]

Trouble is, nobody, meaning serious students of the Bess, like any of the reproductions for model accuracy. Unless you stumble across a re-worked one from Kit Ravensheer(sp?), they all have, be it ever so slight, issues. Stock demensions, ramrod choice, lock engravings, etc. have all been criticized. Me, I bought a Pedersoli because if I'm gonna live shoot it, I want something reliable. That should be a consideration.

 

[Jason Lewis]

couldn't you just get the pedersoli and then beat it up to make it look more used faster?

 

[Hawkeye]

couldn't you just get the pedersoli and then beat it up to make it look more used faster?

Not a question of "beating it up to look used" but a question of it not being "right" that is to say not matching surviving examples from the period, you know, wrong barrel length, wrong hardware, wrong markings etc. I know for some who just want a shooter it doesn't matter but for others being "right" is as important as being a shooter.

Hawkeye

 

[ozark57]

I really want both PC and a good shooter. Small differences aside, such as a proof mark.
I like the feel and knowlage that I am firing a gun as close as possible to an original.
I had family fight in the Revolution, the Civil War, and WWII. Collecting and shooting these guns is a connection to that period , and to them.

 

[J.D.]

a question of it not being "right" that is to say not matching surviving examples from the period, you know, wrong barrel length, wrong hardware, wrong markings etc. I know for some who just want a shooter it doesn't matter but for others being "right" is as important as being a shooter.

So, what is wrong about the 42" barrel and the furniture on the Ped bess being wrong? IMHO, the Ped bess is a comparatively accurate 2nd model repo,for a factory gun.

The architecture is pretty close, as is barrel length. And while the engraving on the lock may not be all that accurate,IMHO, it's close enough for most use.

If you are comparing a 2nd model production bess to an original 1st model, there are...ah...discrepancies.

The coupla Indian made bess' I have seen have had more issues than the Ped. IMHO, the overly "pregnant" teak stock and "hand made appearance" leave something to be desired.

What are the barrels of the asian made bess' made of? good barrel steel, or DOM tubing?

IMHO, I seriously doubt that the barrels on the Indian made Bess' are the quality of the Italian made ones. IMHO, I don't want a pipe bomb made of DOM that close to my face. IMHO, I MUCH prefer a barrel made of quality barrel steel.

IMHO, simply proofing a barrel, in the old way, may not reveal flaws in a piece of steel. Teh extreme stress created in proof loads may, however, create a flaw by overly stressing a barrel, or increase the chance of a flawed barrel failing later.

Ya takes your chances and accepts the consequences of your purchases, when it comes to foreign made products. IMHO, I want the highest quality I can get, when it comes to things that can potentially ruin one's day.

IMHO, Mr. Brooks and Va.Manuf.06 posted the best options for acquiring a decent to excellent firelock.

Oh, I'm not especially enamoured with Ped's products, BTW, but I like 'em better than the crap shoot one is likely to get with the Indian/Pakistani products.

God bless

 

[mikee51848]

couldn't you just get the pedersoli and then beat it up to make it look more used faster?

:haha: That's what I did. That barrel started rusting from the first time I took it out. I also removed a ramrod pipe and sanded some stock off at the wrist. The idea was to get it less like a Bess and more like a Committee of Safety musket. Now after four years of beating it at reenactments, the wood has a number of dings and scratches (character). But I take care of the workings. I tell people it looks like a Chevy but runs like a Caddy. :rotf:

 

[wallgunner]

Have a knowledgable builder, using rifle shoppe parts build you the musket you want. If you whant historical integrity, it's the only way. You'll pay for it, but you'll also get what you pay for.
Second choice, old Jap, third Italian, all others I dare not speak of (or use)!

 

[david stone]

There really aren't any good repros. The buttplate tang is the wrong shape on the Pedersoli, the finials around the lock are silly, the beavertail around the tang is wrongly shaped, the tang should be flat on top, the wrist plate usually doesn't fit properly, comb is shaped wrong, sling swivels are wrong, jaw screw wrong,lock engravings are wrong...
The old Jap ones were similar, except the stocks were not walnut, the trigger guards were flat in the middle and they lacked the escuteon screw. Lock engraving not as stupid. Metal otherwise good, except for the buttplate.
MVTCo and Discriminating general have similar models, Loyalist are different. The stocks are not teak, nor pine, the wood is similar in density and carving to walnut or cherry. The Short land patterns from MVTCo and Discriminating general are not too bad - aside from slipshod work, sometimes unbelievably strong springs, crappy inletting in places. The worst things wrong with these two are the upper sling swivel being in the wrong place, the escuteon screw being in the wrong place, and a giant bow on the trigger guard. Lock markings are better than the Italian one, and they usually come with decent barrel stampings. The Long Land is also pretty accceptable, with the same shortcomings. Loyalist Arms besses - well, the Long Lands are the best. An earlier style than the other Long Lands, the beavertails on the lock carvings are huge and crude, and the forearms are too thick and too much distance between rammer and barrel. They look quite well when done over though. The short models are not so good, buttplate and guard are good, but the rammer pipes are heavy, and the foreend too deep.
All of the guns can stand to be redone. I have reshaped many a Japanese trigger guard and rounded the slab sided forends, I have hacked at the butts of Japanese and Italian besses to give them better shape, and I have beaten straight, filed, fitted, cussed, hardened and tempered and pared and trimmed and scraped the Indian ones.
An Italian one for workmanship,
a Japanese one for lightness,
and a reworked Indian one for looks.

 

[Steve Blancard]

...I have reshaped many a Japanese trigger guard and ...

How did you going about reshaping the Japanese triggerguard? I've been thinking about doing this on mine.

 

[david stone]

I usually go about it by "simply" bending it, sometime hammering it from the inside. First, remove the guard, then trace it from the side so you can get the angle of bend the same, and measure the distance between the ends of the guard inside the bow. If you look at the guard, there are two places, either side of the "flat" spot, where the bend is too abrupt. I "unbend " it here first - usually by supporting it on a section of black iron pipe thrust inside the guard. Hammer gently with a mallet, and do both ends....I think I use two different sizes of pipe - whatever fits. You can buy short sections at the hardware store. When you have opened the curve a little on either side of the flat spot, then you can press it down over a section of pipe, or whatever, right in the middle of the "flat" spot. I sometimes use a bending fork - two stout rods a half inch thick, a quarter inch apart, that I clamp in my vise, but you are unlikely to have one handy unless you do blacksmithing. When you bend the bow, check the angle from the side, till it looks right. Also make sure you didn't twist it. While I have it out I drill, tap, and countersink it for a common oval headed electrical plate screw, so it has a fake ecuteon screw.
Its hard to explain how to do it...but I have done over a dozen that I can remember and never broke one yet.

 

[Steve Blancard]

Thanks for the explanation. Do you do this cold or do you heat the guard some?

 

[david stone]

I normally do this cold. If I feel I have bent it too far and must bend it back, then I'll anneal it...heat it up till you see a dull glow in dark light, then let it cool slowly.
When I bend it-or unbend it, for that matter, I open the jaws of my vise wide enough to clear the widest part of the guard. I support the ends of my little piece of pipe over the tops of the jaws....if the vertical parts of this letter H are the jaws, the crossbar is the pipe. I also pad the pipe with a piece of leather. I normally file on the guard a little to smooth out the curves, its sometimes hard to get it "perfect" by just bending it, and sometimes, if the guard has thick or thin places, it wont want to bend gracefully. Luckily the Japanese guards are prtty thick and can stand a little thinning down.

 

[Steve Blancard]

Thanks, I appreciate the explanation.

 

[Maestro]

You've gotten some good advice, IMHO... If a custom built isn't in your price range, the Pedersoli's are reliable and very common in the BAR & CL units.