Brown Bess Options?

[Commodore Swab]

Why, yes I do buy the best I can afford that fits my needs when ever I need to purchase a new vehicle. I then maintain it and utilize it until it isn’t safe or reliable to use anymore. That is called proper decision making. I guess you go car shopping and buy the worst on the lot? I kind of wonder about anyone that would find the advice of ‘buying the best you can afford’ to be offensive or worthy of derision.

I buy to keep, rather than discard I repair. One could imply from your statement that you go car shopping rather than replace your tires.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Watched it …. It didn’t blow up

Yes I know. It was the only reference on you tube to the subject often discussed. Im not pro or con on the issue. Buy what makes you happy.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Maybe you should post seperate questions to the forum about teakwood from India, the quality of american parts vs. Indian parts

Didn't you just have a thread where you illustrated all the poor quality from TRS? Isn't there another thread detailing how much is required to "correct" a TRS brown bess?

It would be easy for someone reading the forum to come to the determination that EVERYTHING is bad unless it was built by a select few.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I have no interest in this stupid argument once again but. What the heck was that guy shooting out of that thing? Pyrodex to get that fizzle?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Well I’m put in mind of the Hawken shop. Here are the best Hawken plains gun repos on the market.
They took several originals took tons of measurements off of them and then made average parts.
In other words they produced a ‘parody’ that wouldn’t match any particular Hawken
If we say Hawken, what comes to mind is the iron mounted plains rifle. But they made plenty of small bore brass and silver mounted Ohio style guns
Even some of their plains rifles were brass mounted, were they making parodies of them selves?
Hines made a rifle with a 38” barrel. Was that a parody of Lancaster style guns?

We've got to remember that there were two modern Hawken shops. The original Hawken Shop in St. Louis spent a great amount of time to produce molds andthe muskets parts and locks that were like the original guns that Art Ressel used to base his kits and assembled rifles on. I've seen and handled some of the rifles built from the correctly reproduced parts. Those are very nice rifles and are hard to tell from original rifles. I've handled Bob Browner's rifles. Excellent versions of the original rifles. Eventually he had to sell the shop, molds and stamps that were based on the original. As fabricators went out of business and the molds for specific parts and the lock builders retired. As Tenngun states, the kit parts while still pretty good from the Hawken Shop are more on the order of average parts. The present Hawken Shop guns do pass the 10 foot test. But, if one went to the Hawken Classic and looked at the original Hawken guns on display, one would observe that no two of them are exactly alike. Sure, they have the same architecture, stampings and you can tell that they are original Hawken rifles, but the parts won't interchange as they rifles are built to meet the pattern as demanded by Jake and Sam and later Sam and still later, John Gemmer.

The rifles (and shotguns) produced in Jake and Sam's shop were built for the market at the time. There were the plains rifles, the post civil war light rifles, the small caliber rifles that were the Hawken brother's version of Ohio rifles. There were some brass mounted guns and silver mounted guns.

Anyway, to get back to the topic with respect to options on the land pattern muskets. These were built to pattern, not to dimension. If they passed the 10 foot test and looked like the intended pattern, they were considered serviceable. That's where we are with respect to the present offerings of the British Land Pattern muskets. We are too used to the present manufacturing capability of interchangeable parts. We just can't find it acceptable when the muskets presently built to pattern have differences from the pattern we have in our minds. There are flaws to be sure in my Long Land Pattern King's Musket from Loyalist Arms. I made my decision because it was closer to the other muskets being used in my reenacting unit's time period. I'm going to have to stick to that decision.

 

[FlinterNick]

Didn't you just have a thread where you illustrated all the poor quality from TRS? Isn't there another thread detailing how much is required to "correct" a TRS brown bess?

It would be easy for someone reading the forum to come to the determination that EVERYTHING is bad unless it was built by a select few.

Nope, got me confused with someone else, have fun searching, copying and pasting and quoting me.

Like usual you’re a starving troll in need of feeding.

 

[FlinterNick]

I have no interest in this stupid argument once again but. What the heck was that guy shooting out of that thing? Pyrodex to get that fizzle?

It is a stupid argument, some folks need it though.

 

[FlinterNick]

We've got to remember that there were two modern Hawken shops. The original Hawken Shop in St. Louis spent a great amount of time to produce molds andthe muskets parts and locks that were like the original guns that Art Ressel used to base his kits and assembled rifles on. I've seen and handled some of the rifles built from the correctly reproduced parts. Those are very nice rifles and are hard to tell from original rifles. I've handled Bob Browner's rifles. Excellent versions of the original rifles. Eventually he had to sell the shop, molds and stamps that were based on the original. As fabricators went out of business and the molds for specific parts and the lock builders retired. As Tenngun states, the kit parts while still pretty good from the Hawken Shop are more on the order of average parts. The present Hawken Shop guns do pass the 10 foot test. But, if one went to the Hawken Classic and looked at the original Hawken guns on display, one would observe that no two of them are exactly alike. Sure, they have the same architecture, stampings and you can tell that they are original Hawken rifles, but the parts won't interchange as they rifles are built to meet the pattern as demanded by Jake and Sam and later Sam and still later, John Gemmer.

The rifles (and shotguns) produced in Jake and Sam's shop were built for the market at the time. There were the plains rifles, the post civil war light rifles, the small caliber rifles that were the Hawken brother's version of Ohio rifles. There were some brass mounted guns and silver mounted guns.

Anyway, to get back to the topic with respect to options on the land pattern muskets. These were built to pattern, not to dimension. If they passed the 10 foot test and looked like the intended pattern, they were considered serviceable. That's where we are with respect to the present offerings of the British Land Pattern muskets. We are too used to the present manufacturing capability of interchangeable parts. We just can't find it acceptable when the muskets presently built to pattern have differences from the pattern we have in our minds. There are flaws to be sure in my Long Land Pattern King's Musket from Loyalist Arms. I made my decision because it was closer to the other muskets being used in my reenacting unit's time period. I'm going to have to stick to that decision.

The best brown Bess’s out of India I’ve ever seen were sold by Henry Krank, most were third models.

stocked in Indian Beech, and the lock is excellent.

These were made in the 1970’s, and consequently he manufacture was shut down because of Indian gun law changes.

 

[tenngun]

Elitism … ? Oh boy talk about conjecture, you and a few others consistently open up thread questions about brown Bess’s to Indian gun debates, you got what you asked for and now you’re asking for more, yet you generally always feel the need to defend Indian guns by raising the argument and debate.

Person asked for options, I clearly said what was the best, folks decided to bash Indian made guns, based on garbage.
No one including me says they are as fine as custom guns, but they rank well against perdisoli, they shoot well and look right. Not perfect but not bad, better in fact then perdersoli and are more affordable .
They are a safe as better guns, locks work as well and shoot center, as well as any smoothbore
Same bs I heard about CVA Japanese and Italian guns.
Get the best you can afford but don’t miss out on the sport cause you can’t afford the best.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Nope, got me confused with someone else, have fun searching, copying and pasting and quoting me.

Like usual you’re a starving troll in need of feeding.

I must have misunderstood you when you were talking about screw holes wrong, having to make new parts as their castings were poor. I assumed your were unhappy with the quality you had to work with.

 

[FlinterNick]

I must have misunderstood you when you were talking about screw holes wrong, having to make new parts as their castings were poor. I assumed your were unhappy with the quality you had to work with.

Thank you.

The post you’re referring to was about a poorly assembled TRS lock by a builder that I will not name,

The half cock notch was filed off and the full cock notch was moved back and the full cock notch was used as the half cock notch, this was done to give it more throw, not really necessary.

The mainspring was over-tempered, my guess it was heated to over 1650 or 1700 probably got it yellow white, which ruined it, mainspring has absolutely no energy to it, even with a heavy preload.

For some reason the sear was bent, sears and casted perfectly straight by the TRS, this was done purposely , my guess is becuase the trigger was pinned too low, but i didn’ have the entire kit.

The frizzen had a steel shim soldered to the pan cover to compensate for its miss placement.

Sear was drilled too hight, which is bothersome, brown Bess’s have the easiest sear location of any lock, it’s ok to be a few thousands off the location but 2mm !

The top jaw screw was 1/4 x 28 and a 6m n hole was tapped.

A lot of bad, so much work I recommended the owner to get another parts set. The amount of welding just made it unaffordable.

 

[tenngun]

I must have misunderstood you when you were talking about screw holes wrong, having to make new parts as their castings were poor. I assumed your were unhappy with the quality you had to work with.

I recall reading this myself, can’t say who posted it and would look up but don’t recall the thread.
Fact is no one can have a 100% authentic, even buying an original it’s now tainted by age.
Things to think on, ofcouse first is barrels were iron not steel. Iron mounted met iron again not steel
Old wood screws tended to be straight not tapered as used today, but you can’t see those but are inaccurate if used in the gun.
Brass was different and guns went on old trees wood…. But it was new then
Bombay pipe bombs, curry poppers waste of cash, all boil down to its not as fine as the best so it’s garbage
I’ve had three hundred dollar meerschaum pipes and seventy five dollars ones and they both smoke the same. I’ve got couple of Indian and Pakistani knifes. They cut just as clean as old hickory and best knife I got from Townsend’s and Russel
Had Dom Perrion three hundred dollar a bottle champagne….. happier with a Anchor Steam beer

 

[FlinterNick]

I recall reading this myself, can’t say who posted it and would look up but don’t recall the thread.
Fact is no one can have a 100% authentic, even buying an original it’s now tainted by age.
Things to think on, ofcouse first is barrels were iron not steel. Iron mounted met iron again not steel
Old wood screws tended to be straight not tapered as used today, but you can’t see those but are inaccurate if used in the gun.
Brass was different and guns went on old trees wood…. But it was new then
Bombay pipe bombs, curry poppers waste of cash, all boil down to its not as fine as the best so it’s garbage
I’ve had three hundred dollar meerschaum pipes and seventy five dollars ones and they both smoke the same. I’ve got couple of Indian and Pakistani knifes. They cut just as clean as old hickory and best knife I got from Townsend’s and Russel
Had Dom Perrion three hundred dollar a bottle champagne….. happier with a Anchor Steam beer

These were man made flaws by the previous builder, you can search it out under, ‘poorly assembled brown bess lock’

 

[sturmkatze]

If you do decide to sell it, give me a shout. I'll cherish it and be a good father to it. The barrel probably needs to be pulled to be sure who made it. They're usually marked under the barrel near the breach. In doing so, you risk chipping the stock at the pin holes. Not really worth taking the chance. Semper Fi.

Guess what? You carefully take the pins out. They go one way. Doesn’t matter though, they’re supposed to come out to take gun apart. Go Navy.

 

[sturmkatze]

Why is he wearing a ww2 German army uniform? Idiot make’s reenactor look stupid.

 

[sturmkatze]

Guys, just buy what makes YOU happy. Do your OWN research. Do not listen to others as you’ll never be happy. Okay, I’m a bit wrong… listen to Nick Genda. Listen to Mike Brooks. Listen to Dave Persons.

Worrying about what others think? Eff that. Actually do your own research. “Mongo not like books. Wurdz make head hurt.”

Also, the way you clean your gun… use the method that works for you. Why are there pages of the same thread over and over?

 

[ArmorerRoy]

I love my long land. God Save The King

 

[sportster73hp]

Why is he wearing a ww2 German army uniform? Idiot make’s reenactor look stupid.

At the beginning he explains it or just apologizes. I think he was reviewing another gun same day.

 

[Trot]

I thought it would be easier to find some comparisons with originals, but this is the only one I came across.

 

[Commodore Swab]

I recall reading this myself, can’t say who posted it and would look up but don’t recall the thread.

It was nick discussing wheellocks and building a charleville from trs if memory serves. It was not repair work, it's not right to blame a manufacturer when someone else screwed up their stuff.