Best way to finish stock?

[Micah Clark]

From doing a little bit of research there is a difference between stains and dyes...most people, including me, lump the 2 together and call them stains.

As Zonie stated, stains have undisolved pigment and these pigments stay on the surface and impart a color on the wood. The carrier which is normally oil just slightly penetrates the wood.

Dyes are what I use and they have their color dissolved in a carrier like water or alcohol. These dyes {called stains in popular usage} penetrate the wood and along w/ AF and ferric nitrate are the coloring agents best used on stocks.

I use Dangler alcohol based dyes {stains} from Jim Klein and use up to 3 different dyes separately to achieve the desired color on a single stock.

I'll persist on calling dyes stains because it's popular usage......Fred

So Fred . . .Are the LMF 'stains' we commonly see and use a dye or a stain ? I have a Chambers Fowler I am building that I had planned on finishing with LMF walnut, but my coach (its only my second build) has some leather dye he has used before as well as AF.
I've stayed away from AF as a rookie and because I usually have a color in mind that I want. . .
My stock is disappointingly plain maple when it comes to curl, though there is some on the forestock and a good deal of regular grain in the butt, yet overall I'd rank it's curl at a mere 15 to 20%.

Any comments on this or suggestions ?

 

[Col. Batguano]

As was said, dyes will penetrate and give a more even pigmentation because the color is dissolved in the carrier. Stains' little flecks of pigment tend to concentrate in end grain and accent it. Gel stains are an example of them. They wipe off the side grain very well, but concentrate in end grain. That is particularly true in an "open" grained wood like red oak. White oak and maples are examples of closed grain woods. The reason AF works so well to accent curl is that the darker stripes are really exposed end grain, that the liquid penetrates very well. The heat causes the dissolved iron to turn color, and, because more of it penetrates end grain than side grain, the result is that more of it is turned.

I bet if you did a microscopic cross section of stain penetration you would see that the fleck stain penetration is all concentrated on the surface (and pretty even penetration), and dyes and AF would be deeper in the stripes, and shallower in the lighter sections.

 

[Col. Batguano]

As was said, dyes will penetrate and give a more even pigmentation because the color is dissolved in the carrier. Stains' little flecks of pigment tend to concentrate in end grain and accent it. Gel stains are an example of them. They wipe off the side grain very well, but concentrate in end grain. That is particularly true in an "open" grained wood like red oak. White oak and maples are examples of closed grain woods. the reason AF works so well to accent curl is that the darker stripes are really exposed end grain, that the liquid penetrates very well. The heat causes the dissolved iron to turn color, and, because more of it penetrates end grain than side grain, the result is that more of it is turned.

I bet if you did a microscopic cross section of stain penetration you would see that the fleck stain penetration is all concentrated on the surface (and pretty even penetration), and dyes and AF would be deeper in the stripes, and shallower in the lighter sections.

If you apply one color over the next (using the same carrier like alcohol), with dyes he carrier will re-dissolve the previous dye and effectively mix them. If you change carriers, (like water and alcohol for instance) they won't. If you apply layers with a stain they will layer up on top of one another. Many people will use an alcohol based dye to get their base color, and then over lay it with a stain to get to their final look. Finishing wood has an almost infinite number of ways to achieve many different looks.

And don't forget that almost any top coat (oil, varnish lacquer, etc.) is going to further change what the look is after the stains.

 

[Artificer]

Something that is extremely important to the end color of the stock, after staining and oiling, is what kind of wood is the stock?

There are huge differences when staining maple, walnut, beech, birch, etc.

So do you know what wood the stock is?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

The reason I asked what kind of wood the stock is made from is that dyeing the stock with a walnut stock vs a maple stock is a lot different. With walnut, you need something to fill the open pores of the wood like a coat of finish or filler before you stain. Then sand the surface back and then dye it. With maple, this is often not necessary.

Gus

 

[Vaino]

I've used a lot of LMF alcohol based dyes and they do a good job. On plain maple, I'd go w/ a darker stain {dye}. What's nice about either the water or alcohol based stains..... wetting a paper towel w/ water or alcohol and then wiping the stock will adjust the color and intensity. One warning....the LMF red is very intense and should be diluted w/ alcohol...the other colors can be used out of the container......Fred

 

[Micah Clark]

Thank you . . . I am not looking for a red, though a walnut with red tone is ok with me, but I'm more looking for a dark brown. . on my maple fowler.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

Last year when refinishing the birch stock on my first .22, bought in 1962, I applied only LMF maple stain and the limited amount of figure popped right out. Makes me wonder about the need for AF. I have a handful of figured maple stocks to finish. Anyone stained a birds eye maple stock?

 

[Artificer]

Standard leather dyes are nothing more than “spirit” or alcohol based dyes that can be used equally well on leather or wood.


Dixie still has Fiebing’s (manufacturer of leather dyes) make their “Dixie Antique Stain” for gun stocks, though it has too much red in it for most uses. http://dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=3913

For a nice warm Brown with a nice shade of red in it, I recommend using Fiebing’s Medium Brown standard dye. http://companioncaterers.com/media...33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/0/2/025784120270.jpg

For a Dark Brown with no red in it, I recommend Fiebing’s Dark Brown standard dye.

Both of these may be purchased from Tandy for half of the cost of LMF Stains. https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/fiebing-s-leather-dye

I see no reason whatsoever to use some other kind of "stock stain" that costs twice as much and may or has nothing different in it.

There is also no need to buy expensive sealers when one uses Birchwood Casey Tru Oil, which is an Oil Varnish Finish. Thin Tru Oil down one part to one part denatured alcohol and you have the perfect sealer.

What I do is after sanding with 150 grit garnet (sand) paper, I use Tru Oil/Denatured Alcohol 1:1 mix and work it into the stock. After that is thoroughly dry, I sand the stock with the 150 grit again. I might do another coat if the pores are not filled well, but with maple, usually one coat will do it. Then sand the stock as fine as you like with finer grits of garnet paper.

Then use the Fiebing’s dye and coat as evenly as you can. You can add more in spots that need it. Wait at least two hours and rub the dickens out of the stock with a terry cloth rag or towel. Take it outside, but not in direct sunlight, to see what it looks like to see if the color is what you want. If not, repeat the dyeing as needed and make sure you rub the dickens out of the stock with the terry cloth rag/towel after the dye is dry.

For the finish, HARD rub the Tru Oil into the stock in small areas at a time until the oil seems almost tacky dry and then move on to another spot. When you have the whole stock done, set it aside for AT LEAST two to three days for the Oil to dry. Some times in winter it may take up to five or six days when drying indoors. That first coat takes much longer to dry than additional coats. To speed up the drying time, apply the first coat at night and the next day take it out in the bright sunlight to bake it dry. A full day outside in the sun will dry it thoroughly when you turn the stock to different sides during the day.

Get the GREY color “Scotch brite type” abrasive pads that are supposed to equal OOO Steel Wool from Home Depot, Lowe’s, etc. in the paint section to lightly abrade/smooth the surface between applying more coats of Tru Oil. Wipe the stock clean with a clean rag. Use the WHITE color “Scotch Brite type” abrasive pad, that are supposed to equal OOOO Steel Wool, after the last coat, wipe the stock clean and rub the dickens out of the entire surface with the terrycloth rag/towel. If that is too shiny for you, then use the GREY color pad lightly on it and rub it again with the terry cloth rag/towel.

BTW, I stopped using Steel Wool two decades ago when these abrasive pads came out, because you never have to worry "steel wool hairs" showing up later on in your finish.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

One more thing, I have seen stocks I have dyed and oiled in this matter that I did 10, 20 and even 40 years ago and there is absolutely no color bleed out or fading of the dye in that time. The oil does darken and yellow slightly with age, though.

Gus

 

[Zonie]

As this topic is titled, "Best way to finish stock" I'm sure some people with walnut stocks will be reading it.

In my opinion, if a walnut stock is made from good wood, forget about staining it.

Although it looks rather light in color while it is being shaped and sanded, it will become dark, sometimes very dark as soon as it gets a finishing oil applied to it.

Because applying an oil can cause trouble for any staining that might be needed, I do not recommend applying oil to the unfinished stock.

Instead, take the stock outside or put it under a good light and wet the wood with water.

The color and darkness it turns when it is wet is just about exactly the same as it will be when a finishing oil coating is applied.

While it is wet, look at it from several angles.
Chances are good, it's darkness and color will be just about exactly what your looking for without adding any stain at all.

Occasionally some light sapwood may be included in the stock and if this happens then applying a good alcohol based Walnut stain (dye) will blend it in with the good areas.

 

[Micah Clark]

THANK YOU GUS . . . I'll be saving and printing out that detailed post.

I used true oil on my first build after LMF lancaster maple . . but the dye interests me. . . and your steps with scotch pads are helpful.

 

[Artificer]

You are most welcome, indeed.

BTW, I have strung clothes lines JUST to hang stocks in the sun and bake after they are tacky dry, as I have a clothes dryer. (I don't do that on windy days, though, because I don't want airborne dust and grit getting in the finish.) I take a clothes hanger apart and make a long "S" hook out of it and one hook goes over the line and the other through the lock mortise and out trigger hole or sometimes though the tang bolt hold. Looks kind of strange to the neighbors, but they have gotten used to all kinds of stocks and wood objects hanging from my clothes line. :rotf:

Gus

 

[Vaino]

Coloring and finishing a maple stock are very subjective tasks and is by far the most common topic on this "Forum" and others.

One caveat....stay away from chromium trioxide and TOW's Magic Maple stain which is the same thing. The color will turn green.....Fred

 

[Cruzatte]

As this topic is titled, "Best way to finish stock" I'm sure some people with walnut stocks will be reading it.

In my opinion, if a walnut stock is made from good wood, forget about staining it.

Although it looks rather light in color while it is being shaped and sanded, it will become dark, sometimes very dark as soon as it gets a finishing oil applied to it.

Because applying an oil can cause trouble for any staining that might be needed, I do not recommend applying oil to the unfinished stock.

Instead, take the stock outside or put it under a good light and wet the wood with water.

The color and darkness it turns when it is wet is just about exactly the same as it will be when a finishing oil coating is applied.

While it is wet, look at it from several angles.
Chances are good, it's darkness and color will be just about exactly what your looking for without adding any stain at all.

Occasionally some light sapwood may be included in the stock and if this happens then applying a good alcohol based Walnut stain (dye) will blend it in with the good areas.

Thanks for this advice, Zonie. I've been reading this thread with the thought of finishing a walnut stock eventually.

 

[Billnpatti]

Let me start by saying I am not the final authority on staining a gun stock. I have built several rifles and have found that I like to use brown leather dye, It will go on too dark but just use some 4-0 steel wool to buff it back to the color that you want. I have not yet used aqua fortis on a gun stock so I can't comment on its use. For the final finish, I have, after years of using Tru Oil, gone to applying several very light coats of Min Wax Wipe on Poly (clear satin). I just dip my finger tips into the poly and thoroughly rub it into a small area of the stock. Keep doing this until you have covered the stock with one very thin, well rubbed in coat of the poly. Let it dry over night and then give it a light buffing with 4-0 steel wool. Thoroughly wipe off all sanding dust with a tack rag and then apply another coat. Keep doing this until you have at least 5 coats on your stock. I often apply as many as 10 coats. When you get as many coats on it as you want, put it away for a couple weeks to a month to fully cure. Then use a product called Birchwood Casey Stock Sheen. This will soften the sheen to a wonderful soft satin finish that will very closely mimic an oil finish but will be many times more durable and protective of the wood. Oh, be sure to apply at least a couple of coats to the lock and trigger mortises and barrel channel to seal them up from moisture.

To protect my stocks, I use a product called Renaissance Wax. Just a light coat and buffing when I clean my gun. The stuff is wonderful and gives excellent protection to the wood and metal. Here's a couple of You Tube videos about the stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OZagOg2Bek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlToim_s0c0

 

[MSW]

my two cents - for what it's worth:

Zonie's work speaks volumes: i'd cheerfully give my eye teeth for a third of his skill.

Aqua Fortis is sort of like magic: it's not as predictable as you'd like, but it's way cool when it works.

If you go with a stain afterwards, DO NOT mix stains - just because color "a" is solvent based and color "b" is also solvent based does not mean that they are compatible.

i managed to learn this the hard way...

ended up with a dreadful splotchy mess

the folks at Laurel Mountain Forge set me straight and told me how to fix (it which is why i am now a loyal customer)

:redface: :redface: :cursing: :redface: :redface: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

 

[boombyspark]

I see you call LMF a dye. I was very curious about this...... One thing that was only lightly mentioned in all of the above is to neutralize the Auqua Fortis. I have several black guns to remind me as to why this is done. The finish starts out very nice but in not too long of a time the wood starts turning black. My guns are well used between my kids, grand kids and me. Believe me these guns look very black and aged. DON'T FORGET TO NEUTRALIZE THE AF.