It seems many inexperienced people are attempting or trying to build MLers which in years past was an unheard of venture. There are on this forum some fulltime professional builders, some very able part time builders, many that have built at least a couple of MLers and some that are in the process of learning to build MLers, although the learning process doesn't really end. The best way to learn how to build MLers probably varies among all types of builders, but it would be interesting as to how the various builders learned their own "how to build MLers"? Books, apprenticeship, mentors, viewing originals, seminars, advice from other builders or from forums such as this or just jumping in and doing it as best as could be done? If one were to set out to learn this trade the quickest and best way possible, what's the answer, considering these modern times?
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Best way to learn how to build....
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Capt. Jas.
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1. Mike Brook's tutorials
2. Books
3. Viewing originals
4. Advice from other builders from ALR forums.
2. Books
3. Viewing originals
4. Advice from other builders from ALR forums.
I am not a builder - not yet anyway as I am still waiting for my barrel to arrive for my early Lancaster (its in customs, I think). I will begin when it arrives.
But here is how I am preparing:
1) I have haunted this site for about a year now, and have learned heaps from the generous advice given freely - thanks guys.
2) Mike Brook's Tutorial, Jim Turpin's DVD, Ron Ehlert's DVD - all excellent.
3) Read - and re-read GMGC and anything else I can lay by hands on.
4) Built a new workshop with all that's needed for gunmaking and leatherwork (my other craft interest).
5) Practise with sharpening chisels and gouges etc
After that, I figure its just a matter of picking up the tools and giving it a go!!
Wish me luck
Robbo
But here is how I am preparing:
1) I have haunted this site for about a year now, and have learned heaps from the generous advice given freely - thanks guys.
2) Mike Brook's Tutorial, Jim Turpin's DVD, Ron Ehlert's DVD - all excellent.
3) Read - and re-read GMGC and anything else I can lay by hands on.
4) Built a new workshop with all that's needed for gunmaking and leatherwork (my other craft interest).
5) Practise with sharpening chisels and gouges etc
After that, I figure its just a matter of picking up the tools and giving it a go!!
Wish me luck
Robbo
I just built my first flintlock rifle, came out pretty good.
First I decided what I wanted to build and accumulated all the parts. I went with very good parts, no cutting corners.
I sent my barrel to Fred Miller for inletting into my stock blank and drilling my ramrod hole.
While the barrel was gone I bought gun building books, videos and haunted this and the ALR site's gun building sections. I learned something the books and videos left out almost daily. What was amazing, I could be at any phase of my build, pondering on what to do next and someone on these sites would ask the same question I was thinking.
It took me a long time to build my gun because I would put it up for months at a time and do other things.
Like I tell my bow making students, don't ever grab a tool that cuts faster when you are frustrated with your progress. The same holds true for gun building.
First I decided what I wanted to build and accumulated all the parts. I went with very good parts, no cutting corners.
I sent my barrel to Fred Miller for inletting into my stock blank and drilling my ramrod hole.
While the barrel was gone I bought gun building books, videos and haunted this and the ALR site's gun building sections. I learned something the books and videos left out almost daily. What was amazing, I could be at any phase of my build, pondering on what to do next and someone on these sites would ask the same question I was thinking.
It took me a long time to build my gun because I would put it up for months at a time and do other things.
Like I tell my bow making students, don't ever grab a tool that cuts faster when you are frustrated with your progress. The same holds true for gun building.
Mike Brooks
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2010 marks my 30th year building muzzleloading guns. I still learn new stuff all the time. I don't believe there is any "quick" way to learn this trade. It all really boils down to some folks got the knack and some don't.
Mike nailed it. But there are more resources now than ever before. Some folks are book types and some can use videos. For me, seeing someone do it and explaining things beats them all.
"Building" - assembling a good sound shooter- is one thing. Capturing a style is a whole nother level and requires a lot of study or time developing your own style.
"Building" - assembling a good sound shooter- is one thing. Capturing a style is a whole nother level and requires a lot of study or time developing your own style.
nchawkeye
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Building ain't the hard part, producing a work of art is...
JOHN ZUREKI
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I think that apprenticing with someone who really knows, I mean REALLY KNOWS, might give a person a real fighting chance. There is just so so much that you can not get from books, tapes, lectures etc. Don,t get me wrong,everything helps and you learn by getting involved in all manners.I have been involved in building these guns for almost 30 years. It frightens me sometimes when I think about all I don,t know about them. I have read all the books, watched all the videos, talked to anybody who has experience with thes guns and still I not satisfied with what I,v learned. I realized awhile back that all the guns I have built I should have left them in the white. It would be easier to repair a lot of my mistakes if I did,nt have strip off the finish. There is a big difference in the way I look at a rifle that I built years ago[which at the time I thought was pretty good] and the way I view that rifle today. I have had more time now, being retired, to find out how much I really don,t know. I,ll keep trying though.
Its a bit intimidating to someone just about to take the plunge to learn that even after 30 years - there is more to learn, especially when, like me, you are half a world away from where best advice can be got - other than via the 'net.
Added to this, as some have suggested, there is a vast difference between simply being able to build a "shooter" that looks more or less ok, to something that reflects the "spirit" of the early makers.
I think therefore that its a matter of setting realistic goals and seeing how far you can get, but understanding that as MB has said, some will have the knack to excel, and some wont.
Robbo.
Added to this, as some have suggested, there is a vast difference between simply being able to build a "shooter" that looks more or less ok, to something that reflects the "spirit" of the early makers.
I think therefore that its a matter of setting realistic goals and seeing how far you can get, but understanding that as MB has said, some will have the knack to excel, and some wont.
Robbo.
Capt. Jas.
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PIKELAKE said:
Had the opportunity when younger and did not take advantage of it like I should have. :redface: :youcrazy: :shake: :cursing:
Definitely building under a master gunmaker would be the way to really learn. I always wanted to do that but never had the opportunity or funds to let me "just go" and do that, and didn't have anyone close by.
I have read allot & built a few rifles, not nearly as many as MB or some on here. And on every one I learn something new or a different way of doing something. Doing dif styles teaches you allot as dif materials, dif. procedures, dif obstacles to contend with. It is a challenge for me to learn to do better each time & I like that challenge. :thumbsup:
I have read allot & built a few rifles, not nearly as many as MB or some on here. And on every one I learn something new or a different way of doing something. Doing dif styles teaches you allot as dif materials, dif. procedures, dif obstacles to contend with. It is a challenge for me to learn to do better each time & I like that challenge. :thumbsup:
Jason Lewis
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Ott said:
do any builders even do that? of course i guess you have to be near one and have the time too.
I guess I am very fortunate to live 30 miles from "Rod Gates". He'll answer any and all my question.35 years of building guns under his belt.I listen.
Not sure if there is anyone that actually apprentices under one nowadays,life is so much different than the days of old.
I'd say it might be a bit tough to raise a family on gun building income? :idunno:
But as for learning how to build,then I figure that would be the best and fastest way.
Not sure if there is anyone that actually apprentices under one nowadays,life is so much different than the days of old.
I'd say it might be a bit tough to raise a family on gun building income? :idunno:
But as for learning how to build,then I figure that would be the best and fastest way.
Having served a 5 yr indentured tool and diemaker apprenticeship, I can attest to the efficiency of that learning system. But when I finished, there was a job waiting for me possibly unlike a journeyman gun maker who has to make a living catering to individual customers. In today's economy, a gunbuilding apprenticeship isn't feasible unless started at a very young age before money demands surface. I've never attended a single gun building seminar or workshop because of various reasons and truly regret not having done so. You would have thought w/ my "hands on" apprenticeship experience that a realization that it's the "way to go" would have steered me to these events. Reading as many books as possible helped me a lot, but some are more visually oriented and possibly videos are more apt for them. For many, viewing original guns isn't all that possible so photos, although lacking 3D qualities, would have to suffice. Websites such as this help a lot but the posts can be confusing to some and sometimes erroneous advice is given. Mike Brooks' photo tutorial is a great help and although he makes it all look very easy for him, the buiding sequence and operations are splendedly depicted. Having an experienced gun builder nearby that's willing to give advice is an invaluable aid but not many have this available. Motivation among individuals varies a lot and those w/ the most possibly do better. I think that an average person can build a MLer after gaining basic info and skills and realizing that "the artists eye" is only endowed to very few, can make a shootable, pleasing MLer.....Fred
Mike Brooks
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Thanks. :bow:
I did that tutorial after I and everyone else seemed to be answering the same questions over and over. I hope it has helped some people out.
I have taught gunbuilding at Conner Prairie for many years. Even then with hands on instruction some guys still don't get it. You can show somebody in person EXACTLY how to do inletting and they still can't do it. You turn your back for 5 minutes and they turn their stock into fire wood. :wink: Some folks can't follow simple instruction or use hand tools....I guess both of these skills should be learned before a build is attempted.
I'll be teaching again at my new humble abode as soon as we get moved, classes will probably start summer 2011.
You're already a fine builder Fred, I've seen your work! :thumbsup:
I have done some kit guns
I have some instructional tapes I am borrowing from a friend I have researched and asked questions.
I am fairly mech. inclined I know what I can and can't do I will have some thing done for me and I will do the rest a little at a time if I am not sure I will stop and figure it out ask more questions
some help, some skill, some prayer, and hopefuly all will turn out ok. plus I am going to dismantle one of my kit guns piece by piece as a visual aid
I have some instructional tapes I am borrowing from a friend I have researched and asked questions.
I am fairly mech. inclined I know what I can and can't do I will have some thing done for me and I will do the rest a little at a time if I am not sure I will stop and figure it out ask more questions
some help, some skill, some prayer, and hopefuly all will turn out ok. plus I am going to dismantle one of my kit guns piece by piece as a visual aid
Capt. Fred
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I gathered up as much info as I could and dove in. Mike's tutorial, a couple of DVD's, a couple of books, RCA vols 1 & 2, searching this site, basicaly any information I could get my hands on.
Then I went real slow and tried to think ahead as much as possible. I've worked in real high end carpentry forever so I'm experienced with having something worth a ton of money in my hands and trying to do the best you can without screwing it up.
The research is at least as much fun as the building for me. My fowler stock that I've been waiting for just showed up on Friday so I'm back into my fowler book before I commence to building.
Then I went real slow and tried to think ahead as much as possible. I've worked in real high end carpentry forever so I'm experienced with having something worth a ton of money in my hands and trying to do the best you can without screwing it up.
The research is at least as much fun as the building for me. My fowler stock that I've been waiting for just showed up on Friday so I'm back into my fowler book before I commence to building.
mike,
i know what you mean. having gone through a carpentry apprenticeship 30 yrs ago, i will say that if you really want to learn how to build these guns seriously, it would be the best way to do it.
there are probably allot of people who would love to do it that way, and that is the easy part of the learning, one must still have a certain amount of in-bourn skill or potential to learn what is certainly a "skilled trade"
without that certain amount of potential skill to work with the materials and machinery, you are almost beat before you start.
i've gone round and round with my apprenticeship board that they need to start classes that will teach the new guys how to use the tools they need to work with. in the last 10 or so years, i've seen more young guys come into my trade that have gone through college,couldn't find work in thier degree field, are very intelligent and never so much as held a hammer or read a tape in thier life. i see them using a saw on the job and it scares me sometimes!
back in the day, an apprentice started when he was old enough to hold a broom up. of couse, those days are gone and maybe for the good, "child labor wise", but that core aptitude still needs to be there for apprenticeships to work.
i know what you mean. having gone through a carpentry apprenticeship 30 yrs ago, i will say that if you really want to learn how to build these guns seriously, it would be the best way to do it.
there are probably allot of people who would love to do it that way, and that is the easy part of the learning, one must still have a certain amount of in-bourn skill or potential to learn what is certainly a "skilled trade"
without that certain amount of potential skill to work with the materials and machinery, you are almost beat before you start.
i've gone round and round with my apprenticeship board that they need to start classes that will teach the new guys how to use the tools they need to work with. in the last 10 or so years, i've seen more young guys come into my trade that have gone through college,couldn't find work in thier degree field, are very intelligent and never so much as held a hammer or read a tape in thier life. i see them using a saw on the job and it scares me sometimes!
back in the day, an apprentice started when he was old enough to hold a broom up. of couse, those days are gone and maybe for the good, "child labor wise", but that core aptitude still needs to be there for apprenticeships to work.
Hopefully some guys contemplating their first build are not getting discouraged reading the either you can or you can't rationale here. I don't think anyone should be discouraged from giving it a go, if that's what they want to do. A person can do anything if they truly want to do it. Make the investment researching, practicing with the tools, thinking out the build, etc. And don't do like I did, don't read anything, just order some parts and throw it together in time for hunting season. I learned a lot on the first one, and the next one will be better, that's how people learn to do things.
Their first gun, may or may not be a highly acclaimed work of art, but it will still be something they did, and hold a sense of accomplishment.
These rifles, just to build one to shoot is not rocket science, excuse me if I'm sounding harsh here, but there seems to be a vein in this thread that is saying, some people should just give up before even trying. :grin:
I've seen many many guns that were self builds that were not all that attractive, but shot well and held a special endearment to the owner. That's why people want to build their own guns. And they should if they want to. Sure some people have a head start, some have much to learn, but NObody was born with a gunsmithing license, it was learned.
If you want to build a gun, order the parts, take it slow, think things through, ask questions, don't bite off more than you know you're capable of accomplishing. If you damage something, try to repair it, if it isn't repairable, just repurchase that component. It's not the end of the world. (unless it's P-5 maple, that would be rather cataclysmic ) Save the award winning curly maple full stock for a few build down the road. :v
An old joke around the toolshops, is a good toolmaker is measured on how well he can hide his mistakes. It all just comes from experience.
-Ron
Their first gun, may or may not be a highly acclaimed work of art, but it will still be something they did, and hold a sense of accomplishment.
These rifles, just to build one to shoot is not rocket science, excuse me if I'm sounding harsh here, but there seems to be a vein in this thread that is saying, some people should just give up before even trying. :grin:
I've seen many many guns that were self builds that were not all that attractive, but shot well and held a special endearment to the owner. That's why people want to build their own guns. And they should if they want to. Sure some people have a head start, some have much to learn, but NObody was born with a gunsmithing license, it was learned.
If you want to build a gun, order the parts, take it slow, think things through, ask questions, don't bite off more than you know you're capable of accomplishing. If you damage something, try to repair it, if it isn't repairable, just repurchase that component. It's not the end of the world. (unless it's P-5 maple, that would be rather cataclysmic ) Save the award winning curly maple full stock for a few build down the road. :v
An old joke around the toolshops, is a good toolmaker is measured on how well he can hide his mistakes. It all just comes from experience.
-Ron
