-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
best way to tighten pattern
- Thread starter pharmvet
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Haven't tried a Nutshell :grin: , but get some improvement with paper shot cups.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
Reducew your powder charge. See V.M. Starr's comments in Bob Spenser's Black Powder Notebook.
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]
You should also reduce the weigh and thickness of your cushion wad to help the wad fall off the shot after it leaves the barrel, instead of following the shot, and punching a hole in the pattern.
Some shooters have begun making their own cushion wads out of styrofoam using a patch cutter. They are lighter, do not hold lube, and drop away shortly after leaving the barrel. Because of their soft texture, they provide a good seal, will hold lube wiped on their edges, and then leave only a minimal amount of debris in the barrel. They are not accepted in formal shooting contests under NMLRA rules, but they work great in the field.
Finally, there is always jug choking your gun, where a cutter is inserted in the muzzle to cut a shallow expansion chamber in the barrel, so that the shot column first expands, and then is contracted just before exiting the muzzle.
I am still playing with paper shot cups, so I can't make a recommendation there, yet. However, I think these may result in some improvement in patterns, based on what I have seen to date.
I think the best thing shooters can do is not expect a black powder shotgun to be taking targets at 40 yds and over, particularly if it is a cylinder bore gun. With choke tubes, or even jug choke, you can get good patterns at those distances, but today's modern shotshell is the cumulative result of all the years of research into black powder ballistics, and then smokeless powder ballistics. They also use plastic shot cups to protect the shot, and buffers in the shot in some " long range loads ". Black Powder shotguns are fun to use and shoot because they do impose extra burdens, like not reaching out as far, or performing as well with huge charges of powder. Remember, Smokeless powder burns up complete within a few inches of the chamber, and the pressure from the expanding gases have the rest of the barrel to diminish. With Black Powder, the burning occurs for the length of the barrel, and only when the wads and shot leave the barrel can the pressure ebb significantly. The benefit of this gradually increasing pressure is that the shot is not deformed by a sudden jolt when the powder ignites, and round shot tends to stay in the pattern, where deformed shot in modern shotshells routinely drops out of the pattern in the first 20 yds. So, getting the most pattern for your effort involves a few different considerations than you might use in reloading modern shotshells using smokeless powder. The secret to killing game at the edge of a BP shotguns effective range is not more velocity, but the next larger size shot. The weight of each pellet that stays in the pattern then delivers the kind of energy needed to take down a bird.
In my 12 ga. S x S double shotgun, for instance, I use a 2 3/4 dram load of FFg, powder, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot for pheasants. I have killed them stone dead at 35 yds with that load. Most of my kills are at less than 30 yds, where the load shines. The slower charge of powder happens to make a very nice pattern. With paper shot cups, I am getting some indications that I might increase my patterns to Modified, or 50% at 30 yds. I am now trying to see if I can get any more out of the cups, or if I will have to be satisfied with just that. For instance, I was putting a full 20 ga. cushion wad in the bottom of the shotcup. I intend to use only half a cushion wad in the cups to see if that won't improve the pattern even more.
You might pattern your gun using modern 20 ga. plastic shotcups. They may not be kosher by NMLRA rules, but if they improve your performance in the field, use them.
[url] http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html[/url]
You should also reduce the weigh and thickness of your cushion wad to help the wad fall off the shot after it leaves the barrel, instead of following the shot, and punching a hole in the pattern.
Some shooters have begun making their own cushion wads out of styrofoam using a patch cutter. They are lighter, do not hold lube, and drop away shortly after leaving the barrel. Because of their soft texture, they provide a good seal, will hold lube wiped on their edges, and then leave only a minimal amount of debris in the barrel. They are not accepted in formal shooting contests under NMLRA rules, but they work great in the field.
Finally, there is always jug choking your gun, where a cutter is inserted in the muzzle to cut a shallow expansion chamber in the barrel, so that the shot column first expands, and then is contracted just before exiting the muzzle.
I am still playing with paper shot cups, so I can't make a recommendation there, yet. However, I think these may result in some improvement in patterns, based on what I have seen to date.
I think the best thing shooters can do is not expect a black powder shotgun to be taking targets at 40 yds and over, particularly if it is a cylinder bore gun. With choke tubes, or even jug choke, you can get good patterns at those distances, but today's modern shotshell is the cumulative result of all the years of research into black powder ballistics, and then smokeless powder ballistics. They also use plastic shot cups to protect the shot, and buffers in the shot in some " long range loads ". Black Powder shotguns are fun to use and shoot because they do impose extra burdens, like not reaching out as far, or performing as well with huge charges of powder. Remember, Smokeless powder burns up complete within a few inches of the chamber, and the pressure from the expanding gases have the rest of the barrel to diminish. With Black Powder, the burning occurs for the length of the barrel, and only when the wads and shot leave the barrel can the pressure ebb significantly. The benefit of this gradually increasing pressure is that the shot is not deformed by a sudden jolt when the powder ignites, and round shot tends to stay in the pattern, where deformed shot in modern shotshells routinely drops out of the pattern in the first 20 yds. So, getting the most pattern for your effort involves a few different considerations than you might use in reloading modern shotshells using smokeless powder. The secret to killing game at the edge of a BP shotguns effective range is not more velocity, but the next larger size shot. The weight of each pellet that stays in the pattern then delivers the kind of energy needed to take down a bird.
In my 12 ga. S x S double shotgun, for instance, I use a 2 3/4 dram load of FFg, powder, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot for pheasants. I have killed them stone dead at 35 yds with that load. Most of my kills are at less than 30 yds, where the load shines. The slower charge of powder happens to make a very nice pattern. With paper shot cups, I am getting some indications that I might increase my patterns to Modified, or 50% at 30 yds. I am now trying to see if I can get any more out of the cups, or if I will have to be satisfied with just that. For instance, I was putting a full 20 ga. cushion wad in the bottom of the shotcup. I intend to use only half a cushion wad in the cups to see if that won't improve the pattern even more.
You might pattern your gun using modern 20 ga. plastic shotcups. They may not be kosher by NMLRA rules, but if they improve your performance in the field, use them.
Last edited by a moderator:
More shot, or less powder, experimenting with various wad combinations, home made paper shot cups, etc.pharmvet said:
But the best way I personally found to tighten up the pattern in a cylinder bore smoothbore was to have it 'jug choked'...now I have a tight pattern and at long distance...just load the components and shoot.
Mike Brooks
Cannon
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2005
- Messages
- 6,686
- Reaction score
- 33
JUG CHOKE :thumbsup:pharmvet said:
Paul, I'm sure you know that the standard for a modified pattern is 60% in a 30" circle at FORTY yards. As a rough rule of thumb, I expect patterns to change by 10% for each 5 yards, plus or minus, so you'd need 80% at 30 yards to still have 60% at 40 yards.paulvallandigham said:
Maybe you need another cup of coffee Paul. :grin:
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
No, Joe, maybe I need to learn to type numbers better! On my keyboard, the 5 and 6 are still next to each other, as are the 3 and 4.
Asto the patterns, One of my early test shots put more than 55% of its shot in that magic 30 inch circle at 40 yds. I also had a failure to open with a paper shotcup, that left a keyhole in the 25 yd target and broke the upright for the 50 yd target behind it. This was a very early test, and we made the cup too thick, and it did not open to release the shot at all! We were shooting these early loads at 25 yds because we had a target set up at that distance, and were trying to figure out how to make a paper shotcup that would function like a modern plastic cup! I think I learned more from the failures than I have from the successes.
Asto the patterns, One of my early test shots put more than 55% of its shot in that magic 30 inch circle at 40 yds. I also had a failure to open with a paper shotcup, that left a keyhole in the 25 yd target and broke the upright for the 50 yd target behind it. This was a very early test, and we made the cup too thick, and it did not open to release the shot at all! We were shooting these early loads at 25 yds because we had a target set up at that distance, and were trying to figure out how to make a paper shotcup that would function like a modern plastic cup! I think I learned more from the failures than I have from the successes.
Rebel said:
I would like to add that the type of paper you choose will help out as well, heavier paper will "hold" the shot longer than lighter paper...
Experiment with different papers like:
- Coin Rolls
Printer Paper
Brown Bag Paper
Post It Notes
News Paper
Gas & Electric Bill Paper
I have found that thick paper works the best. I use Index Card paper. But i do put splits in the end to help them open. I split them about 1/3 of the way down, with 3 splits. I had some that wouldn't open using thinner paper, but the index card ones seem to work fine.
paulvallandigham
Passed On
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2006
- Messages
- 17,537
- Reaction score
- 89
/Rebel: Out of curiousity, what kind of patterns are you getting with those shotcups made from index card paper with the slits? Do three slits work better than 4?
Paul, not real sure as far as a percentage, just that i get enough pellets in the head neck area of a turkey target to kill turkeys with it to 25 yds. I haven't tried it with 4 slits, just with the 3. I have some now that i want to try that are just folded up around a dowel from the bottom and will be just 2 sided cups. Need for the rain to stop now so i can try them before the Oct 15 fall turkey opener.
I stopped using a lubed wads at all for my heavy loads with larger shot. The lubed cushion wad was blowing patterns, even using half of one. Recently I worked up a lead #7 load for dove hunting. With 7's and 9's, the lubed cushion wad helps the pattern, even if you use a full wad. I have not heard this from anyone else, but the increase was easy to see out of my gun. Also, my gun is very light for a 12. The difference in felt recoil between 2f and 3f is dramatic. Definately try 2f in your gun.
Mike is right if you have to have a constant tight patern but if you lern to shoot your gun before you go and get it choked you may surprise yourself. You would be surprised how far you can break a clay bird with a cly bore gun. If you can break a clay bird it will kill a feathered one.
Berk
Berk
walruskid1
54 Cal.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,896
- Reaction score
- 20
can you have a double jugged? or just 1 barrel to give a cyl/modified? 
Rebel: How are you hunting those dang Douglas County fall gobblers?
With the Jackie Brown flinter.
Oooh, boy I bet that's a sweet handler.
Yep, it fits me like it was made for me. And shoots pretty good too. :grin:
