Black Bear with roundball

"Black Bear with roundball "
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Traditional only goes so far with some of us. I'd much rather use a more modern conical than have a pizzed-off black bear chasing me around the woods because I shot him with a non-bullet shaped leaded marble that only injured him. Be sure to wear some body armor & face shield should such an encounter occur.... lol

 

[Huntinfool]

Hey Leadball,

.50 cal PRB for bears <40 yards at bait sites? I get good accuracy from 85 grains of FFFG in a 1-66 twist barrel. would that be too light for bruins.

I'm certain that is sufficient for any bruin you come across!
I use 65 grs of FFFg Swiss in my 1 in 66 twist and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for Black Bears.

I haven't found an animal yet that will stop it. So far I've taken four whitetails with that load. One was shot quartering towards me it still penetrated through the shoulder and the exited through the hip!

Go Get Em Pard!
Chuck

YMH&OS
Chuck Goodall
"The Original Huntin' Fool"
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe

 

[roundball]

About the same here...my hunting loads are 90grns Goex FFFg in .45/.50/.54 calibers and they all seem to hit like a sledgehammer

 

[tg]

In most areas the .50 with a 85-90 gr load at moderate range will be good bear medicine, I know of quite a few taken thusly, there are always some who will feel the need for modern bullets for anything they hunt, just as there are always some that swim poorly who are content to stay at the shallow end of the pool.

 

[chickenlittle]

Another fault of the maxi is in it's design. Due to the very large and deep grease grooves, the slugs seem to collapse instead of expanding. This decreases their effectiveness as well.

I don't have much experience with conicals but I don't find stability theory too convincing. Even keyholing through an animal, I'd think the maxi would create a heck of a wound channel. If this is specific to the maxi design, the above explanation is more plausible.

A bullet that deforms by buckling and collapsing on itself internally wastes energy that could otherwise be used crash through bone. To bust a big bone, you want to apply a lot of energy and apply it quickly. A collapsing bullet not only transfers less energy but would do it over a much longer period of time. The time might still be fractions of milliseconds but not neglible. Energy and time both work in favor of a big bone bending and not breaking while the bullet glances off.

Great for crumple zones in a car but maybe not good for a lead bullet.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Davy Crockett killed over 300 bear with a 40 cal. round ball rifle,quess they died of fright!!! He used hounds most of the time and he was a crack shot on easy treed bears.

 

Sorry if fact doesn't match your theory.
; The maxi's did't keyhole - they skidded off through the tissue, making neat little wounds, striking a bone & losing 1/2 the nose, bending, glancing away, NEVER expanding, going around ribs, like they were afraid of bones. Bloody horrid excuse for bullet. They wounded & lost, in just that small area, a mnimum of 50/60 moose every fall between 1978 and 1987. That was the year we had everyone using RB's riding over those cheaply-made shallow grooves, but Killing the moose with one shot, instead of wounding. Even though the laods casued stripping, the normal ranges of much less thn 100yds., they worked just fine as they were more acurate than muskets.
; Had they been 220 short flat nosed slug - they'd probably been terific in those same 48" twists, but they were too long, unstable in tissue and incapable of killing a moose with only 1 or 2 shots. I'm not BS'ing here - it was bloody sickening, what they do and did on moose - I see no reason why they'd work better on elk. I'm speaking of both .50 and .54 cal.
; I folowed up one moose with my buddy and finally got him down. The guys fired 7, .54 maxi's into that moose. 1 went down 3' of spine, never breaking any bones, just skidding along. That shot was the first according to the shooter - broadside on the neck, turned sideways and just skidded along, doing no damage. The shooter came back to camp convinced his .54 wouldn't kill a moose. He had given up & ready to go home. If keith and I didn't hadn't gone after HIS moose, it would have been another lost wounded moose. It took 4 years to get the guys to switch to RB's from those bloody EASY loading maxi's. Gotta be EASY - anyting EASY has to be good - man, this sure loads EASY - I'm sick of it!! Bloody cost cutting manufacturers - selling, sellig, selling - try this is't . EASY
; Here, use these EASY loading slugs and you don't even have to learn anything about shooting a BP gun and you can extend the hunting season another 3 weeks. Just put some powder in it, load these maxiball things - man- this black powder is EASY.
; So - you see, they should kill moose well, they don't - they are too long for the twist and they are poorly shaped and they don't kill moose well AND that's a fact.

 

Daryl has some extremely good points about the Maxi-ball and the 1:48" twist rate.
The nose design of the Maxi is poor at best. It lends itnself to glancing off bone, not breaking bone like a round nose solid or flatpoint.
One of the very worse designed bullets I've encountered was the foster shotgun slug.
yeh, I know you've killed a slew of deer with them and so have I. I've also seen and experience aweful failures with the hollow foster. They are lousey at penetration if they hit a bone.
I spined a running buck at 40 yards once and knocked it down, but the 12 ga. foster slug piled up, broke into peices and did NOT break the spid. I had to give it an insurance shot.
I hit one at mere FEET in the shoulder and, though the deer fell down, it got back up taking two more shots into the chest to distaptch it. The shoulder shot results were aweful. The slug shattered on the shoulder bone leaving a nsaty flesh wound only.
Sabot slugs, adequately stabilized with appropriate rifling do a much better job of penetration even on heavy bone.
The Maxi-ball is poorly stabilized in that 1:48 twist and it is a poor design to begin with. A bullet as long as the Maxi with a different nose profile would be nice in a 1:32 to 1:28 twist rate.
Keep in mind that Moose are much bigger than deer and deer are notoriouisly easy to put down with proper bullets.
Just an opinion for what it's worth.

 

You're right-on Maxiball.
: Even the ribs are 1/2" thick by over an inch wide & they also turn maxiballs, while RB's from the same 48" twist barrel will punch right through.
: All the lost game and eductional problems concerning maxiballs would have been non-existant had they come out with a single grease-grooved, Flat nosed pistol-type looking bullets of about 240gr.mximum, in .50 and 300gr. in .54. These would offer an advantage over RB in penetration & trajectory as they would be properly stabilized in the 48" twists. The very deep grease grooves on the maxiballs are larger than needed for lube and seem to cause collapse instead of expanding properly. Shallower gooves and a true flat nose would help in game killing properties. The Lee REAL bullets are close, but the nose also needs help and I feel some of them are too long for calibre. Such is the 250gr. in .45 cal., while the 200gr. should be properly stabilized. With that bullet, the 48" twist .45 will have roughtly the same power as a .44 mag rifle. FORGET heavier bullets, though - they are too much of a good thing.
; There are so many fast-twist barrels on the market for replacement of factory barrels, there no longer is an excuse or justifiable reason for using slugs in a RB twist.

 

[bob1961]

so would my T/C hawken with 1/48" shoot 175 gr prb better for bear then say T/C's cheap shot 240 gr sabots.....i have both and with different powder charges i can use the same site set up without changing the sites to make up for the different weights....i have yet to try pr bullets keith nose conicals...............................bob

 

interesting thread,,been reading fer weeks cause I drew a bear tag this year,. I agree,long projectiles in a compirmise twist don't shoot fer hoot!
Those that know me know I love my .54, and I'm a ball shooter by trade.
My 'vous friend that is hosting this hunt in the "arrowhead" region, asked that I use a "bigger" than ball projectile. The game is 250-400lb blacks, over bait.
The gun I will use has a 1-48. After 19 yr's shooting almost every projectile made through that gun I've found a really good PRB combo that works well fer deer and paper,(really well)(x!). The gentelman say's the far shot will be 50yrds over brush.(tree stand)
I guess the only option I have too hand is to use the REAL 300 grn(the short one). I have fired the 380 and the 300grn REAL from my gun before and the 300 with proper lube places with relative accuracy.(2" at 48m, about 95grns 2f,off hand) Never could put the 380 in the x no matter what I tried.
So I queary those that know,,should it be the 230 grn .54 cal. ball? Or the 300 grn REAL? As a sportman,placement counts or I won't shoot.
what say you?

 

[shmrck1]

leadball
at 40yds over bait with 65grns 3fff with a .45 will do the job if hit in the sweet spot. remember the sweet spot. we are not talking about sasquach
I am snake-eyes

 

Due to the shortness of the 300gr. in .54, I'd probably use that but only IF patched ball was innacurate with 100 to 120gr. 2F. If I could hit a 3" circle with the patched RB with the above loads, thats what I'd use. If the heavy load of powder gave less accuracy with round ball, then it's the REAL that would get the nodd. In the 48" twist, it's the 400gr. longer projectiles that screw up so badly, AFTER they hit.
Daryl

 

[sse]

Daryl - FWIW, my Green Mountain, 1:70 twist, .54 cal. shoots better than I can with .530 roundball, .018 ticking, with spit, 100 gr Goex FFg.

Regards, sse

 

[roundball]

230grn PRB at 2000 FPS MV will do the job if you put it in the boiler room...and if the shot is poor, odds are the 300grn REAL probably wouldn't make any difference anyway

 

[tg]

I would go with the RB, and if someone requested I do otherwise, I would think twice about useing the word "friend" and the individuals knowledge of ML hunting in general.

 

I intend to hunt black bear this season as well. Bait is not allowed here so best one can hope for is a chance encounter on a trail. I've got a .50 flint and have tried many differen cast lead conicals including those made for CF rifles. The only ones that proved accurate are the 320 grain REAL's which I'm driving with 120 grains of 2F. I use a 3/16" thick fiber wad over the powder and lube the bullet with Crisco. They seem to have plenty of velocity as the trajectory over 75 yds (longest shot I would take on a bear) is about 1.5"

After reading some of the replies here, I'm now concerned as to how effective these will be on killing potential. Dropping to a RB in the .50 leaves only 145 grains of lead which I feel is way too light to ensure good penetration on the larger animal. The .50-90 cartridge pushing a 450 grain slug has proven to be a very effective killer of large game like bear, moose & buffalo. The bullet used in these is a tapered round nose with a small flat, much more pointed than the nose of the REAL. I have not found much of anything for field reports of using conicals in ML's but have found a lot of feedback on BP cartridges. .45-70, .45-90, .50-70 and .50-90 all report complete or near complete penetration of large to very large animals with quick kills from fairly large wound channels.

I'd appreciate any and all thoughts on this.

 

Incidently, there is an ELK Guide in New Mexico who guides muzleloading hunters. This guide recommends RB only for elk, with the appropriate rifling, of course. He too, has had bad luck with conicals in 48" twist button rifled barrels.

 

That was mentioned on the GGVG webforum.(GoGoVarmintGo)

 

[tg]

I think that if you were to poll 100 experienced long time RB hunters who have taken many Elk and Bear you would find a very good track record for this projectile....poll 100 who have been in the sport a short time and learned all they know fron Zumbo and Shockey and the conical would get the nod.....and not from a position of knowledge.