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Black Bear with roundball
- Thread starter leadball
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I hunted black bear with my .54 caliber and a real conical, but never had the chance to try the load because the bear would not cooperate. I admit I also carried my .44 Rem. Mag too.
A bear guide who is a friend of mine was telling me that there was a fellow that hunted through him that swears that a .50 caliber round ball is the best bear load there is over a bait at close range.
According to my friend this fellow shot a lot of bear with a .50 caliber, both over bait and tree'd with dogs. He said the damage and penetration the round ball does is exactly what he wanted out of a load.
I personally went with the R.E.A.L. conical because I wanted a heavier projectile that would still get excellent penetration.
A bear guide who is a friend of mine was telling me that there was a fellow that hunted through him that swears that a .50 caliber round ball is the best bear load there is over a bait at close range.
According to my friend this fellow shot a lot of bear with a .50 caliber, both over bait and tree'd with dogs. He said the damage and penetration the round ball does is exactly what he wanted out of a load.
I personally went with the R.E.A.L. conical because I wanted a heavier projectile that would still get excellent penetration.
What kind of bait do bear hunters use?
I would think a cherry pie smouthered with honey should do it...
I would still use a round ball to hunt black bears, but with a .58 caliber and up restriction... (mostly because I'm chicken)
I would think a cherry pie smouthered with honey should do it...
I would still use a round ball to hunt black bears, but with a .58 caliber and up restriction... (mostly because I'm chicken)
Jay Gardner
40 Cal.
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Bear bait? Pie, honey, old doughnuts, peanut butter, more honey, old rotting meat, grease from a commercial fryer/trap, a little more honey..... covered with logs.
There are a lot of bear in the UP where I hunt grouse and I always have trouble keeping the dogs out of bear bait. You can often smell bear bait well before you see where the bait is.
One stupid, IDIOT, ...edited for explicit language...who should be banned from hunting for the rest of his life and then some, actually wired a spring-gun to a bait pile in the eastern UP. I swear, some people are so stupid they should not be allowed to breed. Needless to say, he got caught and was punished, although if he does not walk with a limp he did not get what he should have.
Sorry about that rant, just really p!$$es me off when someone (note: I did not say hunter, cuz I don't want to be catagorized with that kind of TRASH) does something that STUPID!
There are a lot of bear in the UP where I hunt grouse and I always have trouble keeping the dogs out of bear bait. You can often smell bear bait well before you see where the bait is.
One stupid, IDIOT, ...edited for explicit language...who should be banned from hunting for the rest of his life and then some, actually wired a spring-gun to a bait pile in the eastern UP. I swear, some people are so stupid they should not be allowed to breed. Needless to say, he got caught and was punished, although if he does not walk with a limp he did not get what he should have.
Sorry about that rant, just really p!$$es me off when someone (note: I did not say hunter, cuz I don't want to be catagorized with that kind of TRASH) does something that STUPID!
From what I can tell any kitchen scraps. My uncle can't keep blackies off his pourch where his garbage cans are.
Guest
.58 was a preferred calibre for Bear in California back in the mid 1800's. This, of course included Grizzleys.
: The .50 will handle a Black Bear just fine, & so will a .45, but for a really big one, like a Northern Ontario 400lb'er, or Queen Charlotte Island Monster, I'd prefer something with more "bite".
: I won't say how much the Queen Charlette Island Monster I saw weighed on a beam scale. I will say that it was larger and heavier than any grizzley shot in the Smithers B.C. area except one. It was truely a monster that squared 10'. Black Bear are at the top of the food chain on those Islands with no lack of food at any time of the year. There are no other wild carnivours there. They eat fish and deer all year round.
: The .50 will handle a Black Bear just fine, & so will a .45, but for a really big one, like a Northern Ontario 400lb'er, or Queen Charlotte Island Monster, I'd prefer something with more "bite".
: I won't say how much the Queen Charlette Island Monster I saw weighed on a beam scale. I will say that it was larger and heavier than any grizzley shot in the Smithers B.C. area except one. It was truely a monster that squared 10'. Black Bear are at the top of the food chain on those Islands with no lack of food at any time of the year. There are no other wild carnivours there. They eat fish and deer all year round.
:shocking:speaking of large, VERY large, black bears, there were 3 big male bears that weighed in at over 800 pounds killed during Pennsylvania's 2003 bear season. The largest weighed an astounding 864 lbs. The story on the bear kill can be found on the Pennsylvania Game Commission website at http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=160828 The largest 11 bears killed all went over 600 lbs. This was with a rather poor acorn crop over a lot of the state.
Guest
WOW!- I knew that parts back east had some very big bears, and that around Perry Sound in Ontario some very large Black's were found.
: The big one I saw on the beam scale matched the biggest mentioned in Penn.
: Average large Black Bears normally run 6' squared with very large ones only 7'. At over 800lbs., they must be in the 9' to 10' category.
; The easist way to tell in the bush,( & it's difficult to tell bear size) is how far the belly is from the ground. The very large ones usually have belly hair only 6"-8" or so off the ground and their legs look like telephone poles in size. As well, how big the ears are, compared to head size is also a good way. If there is a lot of distance between the ears, and the ears appear as little bumps, it's probably a big one.
: I would be somewhat hesitant taking one like this with a .45RB & definitely wouldn't try a maxiball from a 48" twist. You want straight line penetration for this job & lots of it with preferably, a larger ball. I would think a .50 to be minimal, - for me, that is.
: I once finished off a fairly big dry sow for a client with my .458- that worked just fine as did my .69RB on others.
: On the average, a big Black Bear will run in the 300lb. bracket with normal 3 year olds, in this area, running only around 175lbs.
Daryl
: The big one I saw on the beam scale matched the biggest mentioned in Penn.
: Average large Black Bears normally run 6' squared with very large ones only 7'. At over 800lbs., they must be in the 9' to 10' category.
; The easist way to tell in the bush,( & it's difficult to tell bear size) is how far the belly is from the ground. The very large ones usually have belly hair only 6"-8" or so off the ground and their legs look like telephone poles in size. As well, how big the ears are, compared to head size is also a good way. If there is a lot of distance between the ears, and the ears appear as little bumps, it's probably a big one.
: I would be somewhat hesitant taking one like this with a .45RB & definitely wouldn't try a maxiball from a 48" twist. You want straight line penetration for this job & lots of it with preferably, a larger ball. I would think a .50 to be minimal, - for me, that is.
: I once finished off a fairly big dry sow for a client with my .458- that worked just fine as did my .69RB on others.
: On the average, a big Black Bear will run in the 300lb. bracket with normal 3 year olds, in this area, running only around 175lbs.
Daryl
In Wisconsin we are not allowed to use any fish or animal parts or by products so all animal cooking fats and meat scraps are out. Here we find companies that have outdated product like brownies, cookies, donuts, snack cakes, taco chips, snack chips, pie fillings, evaporated milk, chocolate syrup, and about anything else that can be eaten. We used to get the stuff for free if we would haul it, now they found out it is a business and they charge us per 55 gallon barrel of the stuff. Bakeries are another good place to check for their day old bread.
A favorite is restaurant cooking grease as long as it is vegetable based. They are more then glad to get rid of the stuff. Popcorn makes a good base food, and then you pour the other stuff over the popcorn. The bears love the stuff and it takes them a long time to eat it.
We then dig a hole about two feet deep and put the items we want to bait with in the hole. Then cover the hole with logs, and sticks. On top of the logs and sticks put some good size rocks. Big rocks pushed off mean big bears. The further the stuff is thrown out away from the hole the more power the bear usually has. This also keeps the smaller animals like squirrels and coon out of the bait piles, and the deer can not get into it. Spreading sand around the bait hole will leave track also and we can judge what kind of animal is hitting the bait.
Also the hole in the ground helps the hunter get a better shot because as the bear stretches into the hole with their head, they usually have their front leg forward, their eyes are trained on the ground, and their nose is full of bait stink.
I do agree with some of the comments in that I think a .50 caliber round ball will do the trick, but like the others, I would like something bigger. We do get a few bear around here in the 600 class range, but it seems more and more of them are in the 150-300 range.
A favorite is restaurant cooking grease as long as it is vegetable based. They are more then glad to get rid of the stuff. Popcorn makes a good base food, and then you pour the other stuff over the popcorn. The bears love the stuff and it takes them a long time to eat it.
We then dig a hole about two feet deep and put the items we want to bait with in the hole. Then cover the hole with logs, and sticks. On top of the logs and sticks put some good size rocks. Big rocks pushed off mean big bears. The further the stuff is thrown out away from the hole the more power the bear usually has. This also keeps the smaller animals like squirrels and coon out of the bait piles, and the deer can not get into it. Spreading sand around the bait hole will leave track also and we can judge what kind of animal is hitting the bait.
Also the hole in the ground helps the hunter get a better shot because as the bear stretches into the hole with their head, they usually have their front leg forward, their eyes are trained on the ground, and their nose is full of bait stink.
I do agree with some of the comments in that I think a .50 caliber round ball will do the trick, but like the others, I would like something bigger. We do get a few bear around here in the 600 class range, but it seems more and more of them are in the 150-300 range.
Guest
I hunted blackies in northern Ontario for 5 years over bait before I finally connected with a 300 pound boar. Handloaded 350 grain flatpoint in the 45-70 worked great!
Bait? Most anything will work, but I did learn what works really well. Two favorites are bacon grease and BURNED honey. The honey is best, You take a small camp stove, an old coffee can, about 2 pounds of honey and heat it smoking hot until it's all gone. The scent lingers on everything in the area and lasts for days.
I burned honey during the last hour of day one and shot my bear early the next morning.
I wouldn't worry about the .50 and roundball. Put the ball in the kill zone and it should do just fine.
If not, NEVER, EVER, don't even think about tracking the thing in the bush by yourself! Big mistake. Hunters have been mauled even killed by the normally docile black bear that had been wounded.
The year I took my one and only blackie a local resident wounded one with a .303 and tracked it in the bush. The bear got him first and he nearly bled to death getting to civilization. over 100 stitches in his face alone!
So even if you think blackie is dead but you can't see him, get someone to go with you to track him and one of you should have a 12 gauge pump with 3" mag. 00 buck just in case.
Bait? Most anything will work, but I did learn what works really well. Two favorites are bacon grease and BURNED honey. The honey is best, You take a small camp stove, an old coffee can, about 2 pounds of honey and heat it smoking hot until it's all gone. The scent lingers on everything in the area and lasts for days.
I burned honey during the last hour of day one and shot my bear early the next morning.
I wouldn't worry about the .50 and roundball. Put the ball in the kill zone and it should do just fine.
If not, NEVER, EVER, don't even think about tracking the thing in the bush by yourself! Big mistake. Hunters have been mauled even killed by the normally docile black bear that had been wounded.
The year I took my one and only blackie a local resident wounded one with a .303 and tracked it in the bush. The bear got him first and he nearly bled to death getting to civilization. over 100 stitches in his face alone!
So even if you think blackie is dead but you can't see him, get someone to go with you to track him and one of you should have a 12 gauge pump with 3" mag. 00 buck just in case.
Guest
We have found the standard Foster slugs to be much better than buckshot on the larger blacks and especially Grizzley. those blighters aren't impressed with buckshotin the least.
: The Jasper National parks wardens did an autopsy on a smallish, 450lb. grizzley that wasn't stopped by the first two blasts with buckshot - double ought with 12 balls- 3" mags. The shot didn't make it past the ribs yet the pattern was only 3" in dia. for each shot. The heavy hear, hide, fat and meat stopped the shot cold at the surface of the ribs. The 1 1/4 ounce Federal Foster Slug not only penetrated the shoulder, but smashed the spine as well.
: We used buckshot for bears at the jail I worked at, & it was OK at about 12 yds. during the day, but most effective on head shots at closer range. At night, from the towers, when I shot most of them, I used my own rifles. I was the firearms instructor/riot squad commander and had to shoot the 'trouble' bears that stocked the prowl officers & got into the dumpsters.
: The Jasper National parks wardens did an autopsy on a smallish, 450lb. grizzley that wasn't stopped by the first two blasts with buckshot - double ought with 12 balls- 3" mags. The shot didn't make it past the ribs yet the pattern was only 3" in dia. for each shot. The heavy hear, hide, fat and meat stopped the shot cold at the surface of the ribs. The 1 1/4 ounce Federal Foster Slug not only penetrated the shoulder, but smashed the spine as well.
: We used buckshot for bears at the jail I worked at, & it was OK at about 12 yds. during the day, but most effective on head shots at closer range. At night, from the towers, when I shot most of them, I used my own rifles. I was the firearms instructor/riot squad commander and had to shoot the 'trouble' bears that stocked the prowl officers & got into the dumpsters.
I don't understand the statement that you "definitely wouldn't try a maxiball from a 48" twist."
I'm not challenging, just asking... I thought that you did get "straight line penetration" with a Maxiball?
Education will be much appreciated.
Regards,
Jerry.
I'm not challenging, just asking... I thought that you did get "straight line penetration" with a Maxiball?
Education will be much appreciated.
Regards,
Jerry.
Guest
Here is what I've learned from others (Daryl) on the Maxiball ( great name for a bullet what?) in the 1:48 twist. Even if the rifle in that twist rate stabilizes the bullet well enough to be accurate, the bullet is NOT stabilized enough to run true after hitting a target. In other words it has a tendancy to become unstable upon contact and could end up going astray inside the animal, or worse yet, tumble and loose the ability to penetrate adequately.
I know that some Chi-Com AK-47 ammo, lots of it, was loaded with steel jackets with closed hollow noses. The idea was not to make the bullet mushroom which would violate the rules of war, but to make the bullet unstable on contact so that it would tumble and tear up more real estate as it were. Penetration in a human target is not much of an issue.
The newer, heavier mil-spec round for the M-16 is a boat tail design that does tumble on contact, again penetration in a human target is not a necessary factor. It makes no difference if a combatant is killed outright or merely chewed up badly, the result is the same.
I don't know how true this is, but Daryl puts up a pretty convincing argument about the 1:48 twist and conical bullets. Penetration in a large game animal is an issue especially with an animal that could bite yer arse.
I know that some Chi-Com AK-47 ammo, lots of it, was loaded with steel jackets with closed hollow noses. The idea was not to make the bullet mushroom which would violate the rules of war, but to make the bullet unstable on contact so that it would tumble and tear up more real estate as it were. Penetration in a human target is not much of an issue.
The newer, heavier mil-spec round for the M-16 is a boat tail design that does tumble on contact, again penetration in a human target is not a necessary factor. It makes no difference if a combatant is killed outright or merely chewed up badly, the result is the same.
I don't know how true this is, but Daryl puts up a pretty convincing argument about the 1:48 twist and conical bullets. Penetration in a large game animal is an issue especially with an animal that could bite yer arse.
The only suggestion I would make is be sure the statement is precise and confined, ie: that the concern is about stability of a maxiball for example, vs. a generalization about all conicals being unstable.
I don't shoot maxi-balls as I don't hunt large dangerous game, but I have played with a lot of maxi-hunters, have taken four deer with them, etc.
And while it was only four instances, they all performed properly...one was a straight head-on chest shot, two were complete straight line pass through heart shots, and one stopped against the far shoulder...no strange deflections or anything...so I think short solid compact conicals like maxi-hunters, with good strong hunting loads, perform very well.
However, I could see where long-for-caliber conicals like a maxi-ball, particularly with it's frontal design, could begin to veer off...and they would probably be even more prone to do that with the moderate powder charges many hunters seem to prefer...just my opinion on the matter
I don't shoot maxi-balls as I don't hunt large dangerous game, but I have played with a lot of maxi-hunters, have taken four deer with them, etc.
And while it was only four instances, they all performed properly...one was a straight head-on chest shot, two were complete straight line pass through heart shots, and one stopped against the far shoulder...no strange deflections or anything...so I think short solid compact conicals like maxi-hunters, with good strong hunting loads, perform very well.
However, I could see where long-for-caliber conicals like a maxi-ball, particularly with it's frontal design, could begin to veer off...and they would probably be even more prone to do that with the moderate powder charges many hunters seem to prefer...just my opinion on the matter
OK, Thanks Maxiball and Roundball;
Now I understand the source of the comment about Maxiball's and the 1:48 twist. I already understood the tumbling action of the M16's round, and the notion that the MAXIBALL is a "long for caliber" bullet is something that I hadn't thought of. It all makes sense.
On the other hand, as soon as I get finished building our new house, the next project is a Transitional in 54 caliber which should be all that I'll ever need for our local Whitetail!
Since I really enjoy the historical aspects, I'll only shoot roundballs.
I'll probably melt down all the odds 'n ends of Maxiballs, Maxihunters, Hornady PA conicals, the 45 RB's the 58 RB's and all the rest that's kinda laying around for 54 RB's.
I'm not saying for a second that the various Maxi's and conicals aren't excellent. I'm only saying that the barrel that I'll use will have a slow "roundball" twist.
Thanks for the explanation,
Jerry.
Now I understand the source of the comment about Maxiball's and the 1:48 twist. I already understood the tumbling action of the M16's round, and the notion that the MAXIBALL is a "long for caliber" bullet is something that I hadn't thought of. It all makes sense.
On the other hand, as soon as I get finished building our new house, the next project is a Transitional in 54 caliber which should be all that I'll ever need for our local Whitetail!
Since I really enjoy the historical aspects, I'll only shoot roundballs.
I'll probably melt down all the odds 'n ends of Maxiballs, Maxihunters, Hornady PA conicals, the 45 RB's the 58 RB's and all the rest that's kinda laying around for 54 RB's.
I'm not saying for a second that the various Maxi's and conicals aren't excellent. I'm only saying that the barrel that I'll use will have a slow "roundball" twist.
Thanks for the explanation,
Jerry.
Guest
Just to elaborate a bit more on conicals for game. If I were hunting bear or anything else large that might bite if not dispatched quickly I'd personally go for the conical in a rifle barrel with the appropriate twist that would stabilize the bullet. I like the 1:28 in .50 as it will stabilize long and heavy bullets like the 405 PowerBelts.
My .451 barrel is a 1:20 twist and will shoot .45 bullets of 500 grains or more.
I still think the .50 roundball at the short over bait ranges would be adequate if the ball goes in the right place.
We all know the frontiersman and mountain men took even griz with the r/b and much lighter charges of powder than we use today, but what we likely will never know is how many bear ate the hunters! :shocking:
My .451 barrel is a 1:20 twist and will shoot .45 bullets of 500 grains or more.
I still think the .50 roundball at the short over bait ranges would be adequate if the ball goes in the right place.
We all know the frontiersman and mountain men took even griz with the r/b and much lighter charges of powder than we use today, but what we likely will never know is how many bear ate the hunters! :shocking:
Huntinfool
45 Cal.
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- 862
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Hey Leadball I believe at the ranges you will be shooting over bait the .50 cal. will work just fine. It may not be the best caliber for all around bear huntin' I'm sure a lot of the experts on here can tell you all kinds tales about that.
I'm just saying that I would not hesitate to shoot one with a .50 rb. I have a friend who is a safety officer for a mining co. His job is to go around keeping bears out of dumpsters and from bothering employees.
He tries to shoot them with rock salt an drive them off but every once in a while he has to kill one. 12 gauge 3" 00 buck does a pretty good job under 40 yards.
In WV it's not legal to bait bears. He told me I could just put a couple of real smelly trash bags in the back of my pick up park it in the right area. Which he pointed out to me, set up down wind a few hundred yards and ambush them as they come to check out the smell. He told me he has seen them come from near a mile away to garbage smell.
I'm reminded of the old Injun saying, "When an acorn falls to the ground, the deer hears it, the turkey sees it, the bear smells it."
I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. Even though it doesn't break the letter of the law it kind of breaks the spirit of the law. I wouldn't want to do that for various reasons not the least of which with my luck I'd probably kill the world and/or state record black bear and then get busted and shamed. LOL! Not to mention give muzzleloading and huntin' a black eye.
Most gun and hunting experts say that any gun, caliber, and load that's suitable for white-tailed deer is suitable for black bear. In answer to your question, certainly you would use your new .50 cal. birthday present on deer wouldn't you.
Good Luck hope ya get a fat one! :: Go and prove me right!
Chuck Goodall
The Original Huntin' Fool
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe
I'm just saying that I would not hesitate to shoot one with a .50 rb. I have a friend who is a safety officer for a mining co. His job is to go around keeping bears out of dumpsters and from bothering employees.
He tries to shoot them with rock salt an drive them off but every once in a while he has to kill one. 12 gauge 3" 00 buck does a pretty good job under 40 yards.
In WV it's not legal to bait bears. He told me I could just put a couple of real smelly trash bags in the back of my pick up park it in the right area. Which he pointed out to me, set up down wind a few hundred yards and ambush them as they come to check out the smell. He told me he has seen them come from near a mile away to garbage smell.
I'm reminded of the old Injun saying, "When an acorn falls to the ground, the deer hears it, the turkey sees it, the bear smells it."
I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. Even though it doesn't break the letter of the law it kind of breaks the spirit of the law. I wouldn't want to do that for various reasons not the least of which with my luck I'd probably kill the world and/or state record black bear and then get busted and shamed. LOL! Not to mention give muzzleloading and huntin' a black eye.
Most gun and hunting experts say that any gun, caliber, and load that's suitable for white-tailed deer is suitable for black bear. In answer to your question, certainly you would use your new .50 cal. birthday present on deer wouldn't you.
Good Luck hope ya get a fat one! :: Go and prove me right!
Chuck Goodall
The Original Huntin' Fool
&
Kanawha Ranger Scribe
Guest
Jerry- I am referring to many years of experience with moose in Northern B.C. during the special weapons hunt. Many guys who lacked the expertise (or tags) to collect a moose during the regular season, bought the cheaper ML guns with 48" button'd twists. the easiest bullet for them to shoot without HAVING to learn anything was the maxiball.
; What we found out was that they were wounding many moose due to poor bullet peformance on the game shot. According to the game branch's surveys (choppers after the hunt), they were seeing many dead moose not collected.
: What was happening, was that the moose wrent showing any signs of being hit, and running of as if missed. So the intrepid (new-to-ML hunting) individual would go after another. There were lots of moose in the area of the hunt so sooner or later, they would collect one, sometimes after wounding several.
: Moose that we cut up to check bullet travel, showed the maxiballs or other bulelts from these 48" twists (.45, .50 and .54) would rarely break a bone, but would go around it or deflect and go through the soft parts, never in a straight line. The twist wasn't fast enough to maintain stability AFTER hitting the animal. I've seen wound channels that turned 90 degrees, coming out the neck that went in behind the shoulder, exiting the guts(bottom) from a lung shot that never made it into the lungs, etc. The elongated bullets couldn't be trusted to go in a straight line.
; After many years of teaching and with our big bores, showing them the benefits of RB' & straight-line penetration and teaching them how to load RB's, we got most of them to switch to patched RB's. The result was that even in the .45's and .50's with max ranges on moose of about 50 yds., they started killing them with one shot. With the .54's and .58's, ranges were able to extend out to 100yds. and a bit, effectively.
: Mostly the trouble was finding a patch lube that would remain soft in extremely cold weather. I'm not talkng about 25F - I'm referring to -20F to -60F. Yes- it gets cold in northern B.C., especially in the "Peace River" country & it changes daily. One day can be -56F and two days later, 36F. While I used Bear oil, Crisco OIL enabled these guys to shoot their moose with RB and use only 1 or 2 shots, compared to shooting them limb from limb like they had to do with the slugs. I've seen as many as 8 shots to drop a moose with maxiballs from a .54. THAT ain't performance. All of the shots weren't good ones as it's difficult to do that shooting through willow trees and bushes, but that's the country we hunted in. The large RB's as in .58's, and larger, will travel through quite a bit of debris and still kill a moose with a lung shot, generaly taking both lungs as well, leaving 3" to 6" holes straight through. The elongated slugs that did hit the lungs, generally left 1" to 1 1/2" holes through the lungs - like stated in Forsyth's book, they left a "Neat Wound". That's exactly opposite to what we want on big animals.
; Sorry this is so long winded, but I hope it expained what I wanted to say. If there are any further questions, by all means, mail me.
I am certain that if the twist was increased to 24" or 28" or even 36", the results of the slug shooters would have been much different.
: Another fault of the maxi is in it's design. Due to the very large and deep grease grooves, the slugs seem to collapse instead of expanding. This decreases their effectiveness as well.
: I'm sure they'd work just fine on deer, but even a 300 lb. deer is far short of even a small 700lb. moose. The moose have massive bones that must be smashed and the RB does this better than any minnie or maxiball-type slug. They go around because it's easier & they're unstable after hitting the hide.
; What we found out was that they were wounding many moose due to poor bullet peformance on the game shot. According to the game branch's surveys (choppers after the hunt), they were seeing many dead moose not collected.
: What was happening, was that the moose wrent showing any signs of being hit, and running of as if missed. So the intrepid (new-to-ML hunting) individual would go after another. There were lots of moose in the area of the hunt so sooner or later, they would collect one, sometimes after wounding several.
: Moose that we cut up to check bullet travel, showed the maxiballs or other bulelts from these 48" twists (.45, .50 and .54) would rarely break a bone, but would go around it or deflect and go through the soft parts, never in a straight line. The twist wasn't fast enough to maintain stability AFTER hitting the animal. I've seen wound channels that turned 90 degrees, coming out the neck that went in behind the shoulder, exiting the guts(bottom) from a lung shot that never made it into the lungs, etc. The elongated bullets couldn't be trusted to go in a straight line.
; After many years of teaching and with our big bores, showing them the benefits of RB' & straight-line penetration and teaching them how to load RB's, we got most of them to switch to patched RB's. The result was that even in the .45's and .50's with max ranges on moose of about 50 yds., they started killing them with one shot. With the .54's and .58's, ranges were able to extend out to 100yds. and a bit, effectively.
: Mostly the trouble was finding a patch lube that would remain soft in extremely cold weather. I'm not talkng about 25F - I'm referring to -20F to -60F. Yes- it gets cold in northern B.C., especially in the "Peace River" country & it changes daily. One day can be -56F and two days later, 36F. While I used Bear oil, Crisco OIL enabled these guys to shoot their moose with RB and use only 1 or 2 shots, compared to shooting them limb from limb like they had to do with the slugs. I've seen as many as 8 shots to drop a moose with maxiballs from a .54. THAT ain't performance. All of the shots weren't good ones as it's difficult to do that shooting through willow trees and bushes, but that's the country we hunted in. The large RB's as in .58's, and larger, will travel through quite a bit of debris and still kill a moose with a lung shot, generaly taking both lungs as well, leaving 3" to 6" holes straight through. The elongated slugs that did hit the lungs, generally left 1" to 1 1/2" holes through the lungs - like stated in Forsyth's book, they left a "Neat Wound". That's exactly opposite to what we want on big animals.
; Sorry this is so long winded, but I hope it expained what I wanted to say. If there are any further questions, by all means, mail me.
I am certain that if the twist was increased to 24" or 28" or even 36", the results of the slug shooters would have been much different.
: Another fault of the maxi is in it's design. Due to the very large and deep grease grooves, the slugs seem to collapse instead of expanding. This decreases their effectiveness as well.
: I'm sure they'd work just fine on deer, but even a 300 lb. deer is far short of even a small 700lb. moose. The moose have massive bones that must be smashed and the RB does this better than any minnie or maxiball-type slug. They go around because it's easier & they're unstable after hitting the hide.
