Black Powder Substitute in flintlocks

[horseman1977]

I am sorry to ask the same question as others but I have searched and read a few posts about how you can't use black powder substitutes in a flintlock rifle. I just purchased a 54 cal LymanGPR flintlock and the gun dealer sold me some fffg Triple Seven powder and I double checked by asking if it would work with the gun and he said yes. I haven't tried it yet, but was wondering what would happen if I used it in my new flintlock? Maybe nothing would happen and that is the problem, if it won't actually fire due to the substitute not lighting as easy as real black powder. I am brand new to all things Black Powder and don't want to make any big mistakes.

 

[graybeard]

never tried that stuff so i can't comment directly. tried black mag 3 which was advertised as working just fine in flintlocks. it didn't. Pyrodex won't either, but at least the pyrodex folk will tell you :nono: to stick to black powder. graybeard

 

[gearheart]

Don't want to rain on your parade but my money is not on your side of the fence. Especially in deer season when it is colder outside you will likely have ignition troubles. Get some real BP and use that in the pan and about 5 grains down the barrel before adding the T7. That way you can use up the T7 and get decent performance from the stuff. The BP serves to get the show on the road. Of course you must reduce the T7 charge by the amount of real that you use to "prime" the shot. With flint real BP is pretty much required.

 

First, trip 7 generates more pressure -- if it goes off -- than black powder, so reduce your load by 15 to 20% . Second, it may not fire in your flintlock. I have heard of people successfully using subs in a flintlock, but it does not work for me. Some say that it will work if you use real BP for priming, and put a few grains down the barrel under the sub. But if you have to use BP anyway, why bother with a duplex load. I suggest you find a source of black powder. I use Graf & Sons.

I suspect you were sold a bill of goods because the dealer did not stock real black powder.
In any case, good luck.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

My guess is that the fellow who said 777 would work in your flintlock has never fired a flintlock at all. The sub. powders have a higher ignition temp and are a real pain. Barrel charges ignite poorly and pan ignition is terrible. I timed one variety of sub. powder in a pan and found that pan ignition was 3X slower if at all.

Some shooters here have found that they can ignite a sub. powder in the barrel if they put a little real BP at the bottom of the barrel. I've heard 10 grains of BP to start the barrel charge. I said "I heard" because I won't do that. I use real BP. It eliminates bunches of headaches. I'd probably use up the 777 in a percussion gun. If you do make sure you clean your gun properly and soon after shooting.

Regards,
Pletch

 

[horseman1977]

Thanks for your help. I don't think there is any one in 200 miles from where I live that sells real black powder. I will have to go on a road trip to find some I reckon. I don't know if they will ship that stuff in Canada or not.

 

[Dave K]

There are other Canadians that are on this site. I know they are using real BP. Hopefully they will help you soon.

 

[dbutch]

HM... Welcome to the forum....Do your self a favor and only use black powder in a flint lock..Others here use Triple7 in percussion guns..but they use a hot cap for ignition...Takes more heat to get the subs burning.
In the GPR 2F or 3F black powder will work. When working up your happy load you will learn which powder your rifle prefers.
Don't be afraid to ask questions..I was like you about 2 years ago..did not have a mentor ..found this forum and that became my teacher...I have made mistakes....but that's just part of the fun.
Open up the vent hole and cone the outside of it..your ignition will improve.
Remove all bore lube before shooting..I used brake cleaner to flush the barrel from the factory.
Take some 320 or 400 wet and dry paper and smooth the crown of the barrel..simple thumb pressure is all you need..this will aid in loading to keep the patches from tearing.take it up to 600-800 wet&dry and that crown will be slick.

Would also recommend 4F black powder for the priming pan charge.

I used .018 pillow ticking for a patch..530 round ball and 70-75 gr fff-Goex

Hope this helps..Save the frustration and Go with black powder... Flintlocks can get in your blood. and it's a affliction that is only cured with more flintlocks.
Enjoy the ride...Dan

 

[Zonie]

Unfortunately for you, I have to agree with the others.

Although I haven't tried 777 I mistakenly have loaded my flintlocks with Pyrodex a few times.

Although I was using real black powder in the pan and it always made a sizable flash 3 out of 4 times the main Pyrodex powder charge failed to ignite.

I wish the stores that sold flintlocks would have a mandatory training course on these guns for their employees.
The first thing they would learn is that there are NO black powder substitutes that will fire reliably in a Flintlock unless 10-15 grains of real black powder is poured down the barrel before loading the substitute powder.

Even Hodgdon who makes both Pyrodex and 777 says:
"Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex.", in their literature. http://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

While I disagree with their recommendation of using 4Fg powder and I think that many Flintlocks need a little more than 5 grains to insure that the real powder covers the vent hole for reliable ignition it is obvious they agree that these powders are not meant for simply pouring the main powder charge down the barrel and ramming the ball home.

Another thing the gun store employees would have to learn is that the Pellet type powders do not work well in a sidelock gun.
While they will sometimes fire in a Chambered breech gun they will seldom fire in a Percussion gun with a true side drum because the real black powder "starter" on the rear of the pellet does not reach far enough forward to have the drums flame channel impinge on it.

Hopefully one of our Canadian members will chime in and give some directions to a place where you can order some real black powder for your gun.

 

[BigDogg]

The guy I bought my .50 cal GPR flinter from used 777 in it, and also Black Mag sub powders. When she became mine however, I decided I was only going to use real Blackpowder in her. I didn't see the point in mixing powders, and I want to keep things as traditional as I can. I get instant ignition with real Blackpowder (FFg in the bore, and FFFFg in the pan) and as I understand it, real BP is more resistant to moisture than the substitutes. Plus, in my area, real BP is a whole lot cheaper than the substitutes. Best of luck to you!

 

[J.D.]

IMHO, I would return the unopened 777 and find some black. I'm sure that one of the Canadian members of the forum can advise you on where to get powder.

God bless

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you go to the Goex Website, there are distributors for their products in Canada. I believe the closest to Alberta is in Vancouver, but I may be wrong. Contact the distributor, or Goex directly, either by email, or toll-free phone call and ask them where the nearest Retail supplier to you is located. If there isn't one, that Distributor will arrange to ship you the powder directly. At least that has been my experience, and the information I received when I contacted distributors in other parts of the USA that also delivered to Canada. :thumbsup:

 

[ebiggs1]

Welcome to the forum and flintlocks,
I am the kind of guy that when someone says you can’t do something I really try to do it.
I can get the subs to work with some little tricks but when you do succeed in igniting them they are so slow to make them utterly useless if you want to hit anything smaller than the barn.
Neither of the two Lyman GPRs I have were spectacular shooters right from the box. But there again a few little tricks have made mine very reliable and very accurate rifles.
You failed to mention if your gun was new or just new to you. If it is brand new, ditch that sorry flint that comes with GPRs and get a real flint along with your real BP.
This is just the beginning”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦”¦

 

[MSW]

welcome to the forum. i regretably concur with the consensus, having tried Pyrodex some years ago and discovered for myself that, unless you put a 'kicker charge' under it, "subs" are pretty much a crashing waste of time and money in a flintlock system.

that's not to say that athe're completely useless, it's just to say that they won't work in a flintlock gun: save them for a percussion action and you'll most probably be OK.

i still have a few pounds of pyrodex, but when it's used up, i'll replace it with more black powder, inasmuch as 'real' BP is less expensive, easier to ignite, works in both flint and percussion systems, is much more stable, and will regrow hair.

free advice (and worth every penny): get some real BP and see if you can return the 777.

best of luck!

make good smoke!

 

[horseman1977]

My GPR is brand spankin new and I haven't even fired it yet due to not have real BP. I am just itchin to take it out and fire it though. I am going to do some phoning around today to see if I can find some BP.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

You could use a "duplex" load. Here in Mass, which was once the cradle of Liberty :youcrazy: ... you can't find real BP in stock. As is, I have to drive to Maine, from Bohstin [that's 'Boston' to you Southerners :wink: ] just to get my BP supply.

Anyway, a few I know use a starting charge of 10-grains of real BP, 2 or 3F, followed by X-grains of the fake stuff, to make up their total charge.

Works for them ...

 

[bucktales]

My GPR is brand spankin new and I haven't even fired it yet due to not have real BP.

Make sure you clean the packing goop from inside the barrel.
Brake cleaner or Carb cleaner cuts it well. Run patches till clean.

 

[wattlebuster]

been shootin smokepoles for 30 yrs plus an ive tried everything out there except 777. I figure he sold that to u cause around my part of the country its lots higher than good ole bp. bet he has never tried it in a flintlock. get u some bp an compare them out on the range an i will bet anything the bp will come out on top everytime. goog luck to u

 

[SDSmlf]

I have tried Triple 7 in a TC Firestorm flintlock and can not recommend it for use in any flintlock. It did not ignite without some ”˜assistance’. When placed over a helper charge of BP it fired with at best a perceived delay, but it fired. On one occasion the BP actually launched the T-7 and RB out of the barrel without igniting the T-7. Only way I could get T-7 to work without a delay was to pre-mix with BP (1 to 3 BP to T-7 mix) and then place that over the helper charge of BP. What a PIA and would not expect approval from any Hodgdon lawyer. Still have the T-7 ”“ think I may find a use for it on a holiday we have down here in the States ”“ July 4th.

I am curious as to what you will be using in the pan? Real BP is the only thing that I have seen work. Suggest you get a supply of 3F and use it for both the pan and the main charge

 

[Dirk Perry]

bring a ball screw. :v