Black Powder Substitutes

[CraigFl]

Hi all, I'm real new to this stuff, I just picked up a 50 cal T/C Renegade, I have searched everywhere locally to find real BP but have struck out. I have found plenty of the substitutes available and wondered how work. From what I read the real BP ignites better and is more reliable. From what I gathered from reading so far, and if I understand correctly the higher the F# the faster it burns? Pyrodex RS is Equivalent to FFG, if ignition is a problem would it be better to use the Pyrodex P fffg type. I have found a couple of place to order GOEX BP but I'm trying to educate myself on this stuff, thanks much, Craig

 

[ohio ramrod]

While most of us go with black I realise it isn't easily available every where. Pyrodex and the other substitutes will work well in percusions but if you are going flint you will have to go black. The substitutes have a higher ignition temperature which is why they can sell it at the local stores, but it just doesn't work well with flints.

 

[1sgt]

Welcome CraigFi,the TC Renegade will shoot just fine with Pyrodex or triple 7. I have shot 60 rounds with no misfires. Pyrodex RS, Triple 7 FF or FFF is best for .50 cal. I shoot Pyrodex P in my .32 cal Crocket pistol. Get some powder and go shoot. Have some fun. You will learn as you go. If you have a local BP club go shoot with them, they will help you. My .50 cal Renegade shoots slightly tighter groups with 50 gr of Goex at 50 yds. Keep the bore clean and dry, but don't clean with a dry patch, it can get stuck and is difficult to pull back out.
Have fun but be safe.

 

[necchi]

Welcome to the forum,,there's lot's of great info here.

The substitutes have a higher ignition temperature which is why they can sell it at the local stores

While the sub's do have a higher burn temp, 600-800 vrs 400 with BP. the real reason BP isn't stocked all over the place is it's fedral classification,

Black Powder is classified as an "Explosive"

The numerous sub's are classified as a "Propelant" much like smokeless powder for modern guns.

Fed law requires merchants to keep BP in a double locked steel box that is attached to the ground with a steel cable or chain as electrical grounding.
Insurance company's also love bp merchants and reward them with really high rates because they deal with the stuff. Thus making it tuff for every local sporting goods/bait shop to carry it like they used too.

The opinions of powder use are as varied as there are members,,best advise is to just keep reading archived topics from weeks and months/years back.

good luck,,I'm T7 fan, and that's all I'll say. :wink:

 

[paulvallandigham]

It would help us help you, if when you write these kinds of post you tell us where you live. We have members in almost all the states, and in some foreign countries. If there is a retail source for Black Powder near you, one of us will know.

Your second source of information will be going to the Goex Website( see the LINKs provision at the top of the Index page to this forum) and find the distributor for your state, or province. Most list both email addresses, and toll free phone numbers. They can tell you exactly who the nearest retail seller of BP is for your convenience.

Most of us now order BP by phone, or drive to a distributor to pick it up ourselves, to eliminate the HAZ MAT fee. We do a GROUP order- that is, we get together with other local BP shooters- usually a club--- take an order, collect money , and then order the powder shipped to our home. Once the case or two is delivered, we distribute the powder to all who ordered it. Everyone is happy. Its typical for most clubs to place an order that will provide everyone with enough powder for a year or so of shooting. That way, the club only has to do the powder order, and delivery once a year.

If you don't already belong, Join the NMLRA. It has both charter clubs, and state representatives in every state that can help you find other BP shooters, and a place to shoot. That information is also available on its website, I believe.

The distributors who sell a wide variety of powders include Graf& Sons, at Mexico, Missouri, And Powder, INC. in Arkansas, across the river from Memphis, Tenn. at Berryville. Jerry's Powder Keg, in Louisiana seems to be offering the best( lowest prices on powder, and the Maine Powder House is another good source for powder. If you go to the links section here, you will find a pretty good list. Coonies in New Mexico is another good source.

If you go back through the prior posts here under " Shooting accessories" and look for posts that begin with " Powder", you will find a couple from this Spring, and Summer where a member, McKeal, has taken the time to prepare a chart that shows the prices being charged by all the Powder distributors named here. Its very useful information when you are trying to save money.

Both Powder, INC. and Graf & sons, will sell as little as 4 or 5 lbs, at a discount, and are willing to mix granule size, and even brands in any order. Paying $13.00 per pound is a lot better than paying $20.00 per pound at retail, altho when you understand the costs associated with meeting both state and federal requirements to stock BP, you won't begrudge the retailer for charging that price. The Subs usually cost a lot more. And, some of these substitute powders are made on an Ascorbic acid base, that begins to oxidize and deteriorate as soon as the can is opened and air contacts the powder. You have to use the powder up fairly soon or it loses is power.

IMHO, its worth the extra effort to buy BLACK POWDER. its what the guns were designed to fire, and we have not really found a better propellant to shoot in the guns. :thumbsup:

 

[CraigFl]

Thanks for the welcome and the info. They sell the triple7 right down the road from me, what would be a suggested load to start with?
I contacted Grafs the other day, they said they have no minimum order on BP, I'll order a few pounds in the near future.

 

[Rat Trapper]

If your rifle is a cap gun, buy what you can find locally and go to the rifle range. Whil I do use Goex in some of my rifles, my hunting rifle is always loaded with Triple Seven.

 

[2172]

join a club and find a few fellow shooters with whom to order...the Hazmat charge is $20 regardless of the quantity...Hank

 

[Zoar]

Craig---Welcome to the forum. The advise you have been given is excellent so far. Maybe I missed it, but I did not see if you answered the question whether you have a percussion cap gun or a flint gun.

As stated, there is a $20 hazmat fee on any amount of powder you have shipped into you. I bought 24 pounds to ease the pain and am glad I did. I have everything from cannons to blunderbuss to small caliber now, and they all love real black powder.

Of course, it all started with one black powder rifle!!! :thumbsup:

 

[Billnpatti]

You didn't say if your rifle is a flintlock or a percussion. If it is a percussion, you will have no problem shooting any of the substitutes. As a rule of thumb, fffG or its equivalent is good for guns from .50 cal. on down. Once you go above .50 cal. it is usually best to use ffG. Now, this is just a general rule of thumb or a guideline and not something that is written in stone.

It is true that the finer the granulation, the faster the powder burns. If you were to look at a pressure curve of each of the powders, all would reach about the same max pressure, assuming equal loads, but the finer granulations will get there faster. This sudden pressure increase is what makes fine granulations questionable in the larger bores. A larger bore will require a larger charge. The larger charge will generate a higher pressure and if that pressure is reached too quickly, it can cause some undesireable problems. If you have a .50, .54 or even a .58, you can try fffG at reduced loads and slowly and carefully work up.

One thing about using the finer granulations, is that they usually leave less fouling in your bore than the coarser granulations.

Something I would recommend is that you buy a copy of Dutch Schultz' Muzzleloading Accuracy Technique (I think that is the title of his work). Anyway, you can do a google search for it. He is charging $15 for it and it is money well spent. He has a very effective way of finding the best load for your rifle and achieving all of the accuracy that is is capable of.

Here is Dutch's web site.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

 

[Little Wattsy]

Thanks for the welcome and the info. They sell the triple7 right down the road from me, what would be a suggested load to start with?
I contacted Grafs the other day, they said they have no minimum order on BP, I'll order a few pounds in the near future.

I really like Prodex RS my self but my friend is a fan of 777. BOTH work well!
If you want to "target shoot" I would start at 50 grains of powder and move in 5 grain increments and three shot groups to see what patterns best in YOUR gun. IF you are more interested in hunting then I would start at 70 grains and move up towards 100 in 5 grain jumps from there; Again looking for your BEST group's.

 

[William O.]

Hi all, I'm real new to this stuff, I just picked up a 50 cal T/C Renegade, I have searched everywhere locally to find real BP but have struck out. I have found plenty of the substitutes available and wondered how work. From what I read the real BP ignites better and is more reliable. From what I gathered from reading so far, and if I understand correctly the higher the F# the faster it burns? Pyrodex RS is Equivalent to FFG, if ignition is a problem would it be better to use the Pyrodex P fffg type. I have found a couple of place to order GOEX BP but I'm trying to educate myself on this stuff, thanks much, Craig

You can use either 2f or 3f powder in your 50cal, there shouldn't be a difference in ignition between the 2 granulations. If using Triple 7 you have to reduce your normal load by 15% as it is more energetic. Start with a 50 grain load using Pyrodex type or Goex traditional, (42 grains of T7) shoot three and record your results in a notebook. Go up in 5 grain increments to find the best group with your rifle. You may have to try different thicknesses of patch to get the best results.

 

[Pork Chop]

Where in Florida are you? Jimmy's pawn in Ocala sells Goes. Buffalo Bills in Orlando does as well.

 

[CraigFl]

Thanks again all for the advice, The gun is a percussion.
Thanks Pork Chop for the tip on Jimmy's pawn shop in Ocala, I live in Gainesville so thats real close.

 

[Pork Chop]

When you go to Jimmy's you have to ask for it. Best of luck!

Where do you hunt/shoot? I live just south of Jacksonville and used to hunt over in Hawthorne.

 

[CraigFl]

I hunt the WMA's around here now, I also hunt the archery only area of Camp Blanding alot. We had a lease in Starke but lost it last year.

Do you have a contact # for Jimmy's? I did a search for it but nothing comes up in Ocala, could it be Jerry's, I did find one of those. Thanks, Craig