Greetings! I am new to the forum and would like to know if there are any substitutes for FFG black powder that I can use in my T/C Hawken .54 cal. flintlock? I can't find any local retailers that sell black powder but several of them have said black powder substitutes such as Triple 7 can be used. My T/C rifle manual (dated 1992) states that black powder is the only propellant that should be used. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Black Powder Substitutes
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nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Flintlocks work best with the real stuff, real black powder has a lower ignition temp which is what you need...
You do have several options, some guys order on the net, some buy direct from distributors and some Bass Pro, Gander Mtn and Cabelas stores have it stored locked up but you have to ask for it...
Sadly, part of this problem is due to the decline of the small mom and pop sproting goods store...Walmart and Kmart don't want this stuff around...
Where do you live??? We may have someone close that can help...
You do have several options, some guys order on the net, some buy direct from distributors and some Bass Pro, Gander Mtn and Cabelas stores have it stored locked up but you have to ask for it...
Sadly, part of this problem is due to the decline of the small mom and pop sproting goods store...Walmart and Kmart don't want this stuff around...
Where do you live??? We may have someone close that can help...
I'm sure others can give you the details but flintlocks just don't like the substitutes, I believe they (subs) just don't burn fast and hot enough to make the ignition reliable in the pan-touchhole-main charge transition. Hope this helps. Maybe other member live in the same neck -of-the-woods as you and can point you toward a shop that sells the real stuff.
steve nagy
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Hey, I am new to the forum, and darned glad to be here, but not new to shooting traditional gear. I had the same questions about trad gear regarding subs. Having no one to advise nor any store to buy real Goex so I tried 777 after trying Pyrodex and some other type.
I have had great success with 777 in my percussion rifles and know others who use it routinely in flintlocks. Some mail order shops do carry black powder but minimum order size is usually about 5 pounds, and, if you are like me it would take a decade to go through that much.
I would try 777 although it is a higher pressure powder in comparison to true black powder. You can always grind a little down for your pan. Maybe a shooting buddy has some different subs that you can try for yourself before buying any at all? I have found in a most unscientific manner that 777 gives about another 5-10% increase in velocity compared to true black powder. Hope that this helps and eager to hear about your results.
DD sends :v
I have had great success with 777 in my percussion rifles and know others who use it routinely in flintlocks. Some mail order shops do carry black powder but minimum order size is usually about 5 pounds, and, if you are like me it would take a decade to go through that much.
I would try 777 although it is a higher pressure powder in comparison to true black powder. You can always grind a little down for your pan. Maybe a shooting buddy has some different subs that you can try for yourself before buying any at all? I have found in a most unscientific manner that 777 gives about another 5-10% increase in velocity compared to true black powder. Hope that this helps and eager to hear about your results.
DD sends :v
It sounds like black powder is still the best bet. I did pick up some 777 yesterday since we are in the middle of muzzle loader deer season (WI) and I needed something. Maybe I will give it a try so I can spend more time in the woods rather than doing a road trip searching for powder.
www.powderinc.com delivers. Flintlocks need the real stuff for reliable ignition. There are some work arounds (like the T/C Firestorm) but the lower ignition point of real BP makes it the best choice.
True, the HazMat fee is a pain. But a pound of powder only goes 70 shots or so in a .54 or 12 bore shotgun. Disappears fast.
True, the HazMat fee is a pain. But a pound of powder only goes 70 shots or so in a .54 or 12 bore shotgun. Disappears fast.
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You will find that 777 alone will not work by itself in a flintlock and will definitely not work as priming. It will work just fine as a main charge if you put about 10 grains of black powder down the barrel first then the balance of 777 and prime with black powder. Shoots really clean and cleans up a lot easier.
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One other important thing. 777 does not work well compressed. Unlike black powder with 777 you just seat the ball on the powder. No packing it down.
steve nagy
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Pardon the pure ignorance here but is there THAT much difference in ignition between a quality flint and a quality cap gun? I have seen both used with great effect but no personal experience.
I have not had a negative experience in compressed 777 loads albeit in my cap gun. I do not use brute force when compressing my powder under the ball but do press hard to ensure there are no gaps or spaces. I did notice that my former Hawken style Italian gun seemed somewhat slower in ignition than my current southern style rifle. This rifle does have a Siler lock and better built drum than the former. I have always felt as though I was "cheating" in not using Goex but the 777 has worked too well to switch over.
That said, my next gun will most likely be a flint gun and I will have to learn directly.
I have not had a negative experience in compressed 777 loads albeit in my cap gun. I do not use brute force when compressing my powder under the ball but do press hard to ensure there are no gaps or spaces. I did notice that my former Hawken style Italian gun seemed somewhat slower in ignition than my current southern style rifle. This rifle does have a Siler lock and better built drum than the former. I have always felt as though I was "cheating" in not using Goex but the 777 has worked too well to switch over.
That said, my next gun will most likely be a flint gun and I will have to learn directly.
paulvallandigham
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Yes, there is that much difference between the speed of ignition using real BP, vs. using 777, or any other sub. The only way to prove that to most guys is for them to actually experience it.
When I began shooting my flintlock at my club, a long time member came down to ask me if I was now shooting a percussion lock rifle again. I pointed to my rife leaning against the loading bench, and told him, " No I am shooting my flintlock, as always!" He wanted to know how I got it to go off so fast. So I showed him how to load and prepare a flint lock for firing, using my vent pick to make a hole in the powder charge in the barrel, after seating the PRB down to a MARK on my rod- no compressing the powder. I then primed the pan and fired the gun as he watched.
kBOOM!
It should be that fast, if its tuned and set up correctly.
He was fascinated, and watched as I cleaned, reloaded, primed and fired it again. He told me that from the other end of the firing line, it sounded like it went off as fast as any percussion gun. THAT IS THE WAY ITS SUPPOSE TO FIRE!
Most people have no idea how to shoot a flintlock, and get their education by watching old Daniel Boone, and Davy Crockett movies on the Disney channel, these days. I have actually had men come up and argue with me that my gun was firing too fast- that a flint lock is supposed to fire slowly--
Klatch-sh-sh-sh-BOOM!
I have been arguing against the "fuse effect" for flintlock rifles for more than 25 years now, but I still hear I am "wrong". :youcrazy: :nono: :shake: :shocked2: :surrender: :thumbsup:
When I began shooting my flintlock at my club, a long time member came down to ask me if I was now shooting a percussion lock rifle again. I pointed to my rife leaning against the loading bench, and told him, " No I am shooting my flintlock, as always!" He wanted to know how I got it to go off so fast. So I showed him how to load and prepare a flint lock for firing, using my vent pick to make a hole in the powder charge in the barrel, after seating the PRB down to a MARK on my rod- no compressing the powder. I then primed the pan and fired the gun as he watched.
kBOOM!
It should be that fast, if its tuned and set up correctly.
He was fascinated, and watched as I cleaned, reloaded, primed and fired it again. He told me that from the other end of the firing line, it sounded like it went off as fast as any percussion gun. THAT IS THE WAY ITS SUPPOSE TO FIRE!
Most people have no idea how to shoot a flintlock, and get their education by watching old Daniel Boone, and Davy Crockett movies on the Disney channel, these days. I have actually had men come up and argue with me that my gun was firing too fast- that a flint lock is supposed to fire slowly--
Klatch-sh-sh-sh-BOOM!
I have been arguing against the "fuse effect" for flintlock rifles for more than 25 years now, but I still hear I am "wrong". :youcrazy: :nono: :shake: :shocked2: :surrender: :thumbsup:
steve nagy
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Paul,
Thanks for the info! I had always thought a slow flint was due to the lock being a problem. I will keep your tip in mind.
Thanks for the info! I had always thought a slow flint was due to the lock being a problem. I will keep your tip in mind.
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Paul is right on with how the rock guns are supposed to fire. Though I've been using flint guns for a while now, I remain amazed at how little priming powder is needed to have the gun fire "Click!Kaboom!"
About that business of shooters routinely using 777 in their flintlocks. I wonder. The only way that I have ever been able to get it to light is - as already posted - by duplexing with BP. At that point, I decided that, since I was using BP anyway, I might as well use it for the whole charge. Haven't looked back.
Pete
About that business of shooters routinely using 777 in their flintlocks. I wonder. The only way that I have ever been able to get it to light is - as already posted - by duplexing with BP. At that point, I decided that, since I was using BP anyway, I might as well use it for the whole charge. Haven't looked back.
Pete
Mike Brooks
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I just thought I better say that not all flintlock shooters use the same methods as our resident expert. I never pick the vent unless there is an obvious chunks of something that is not black powder in the vent hole. I want my powder right next to the pan. I always try to compress black powder, especially goex or schuetzen, it burns cleaner with compression and I can load all day with out cleaning.
Bottom line, subs don't work in a flintlock with out the addition of a black powder booster at the breech.
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With compressed loads out of a ML rifle you might not notice a difference except for the sounds of the shot and increased fouling. If you shot over a cronograph you would see considerable shot to shot variations on the order of over 100fps.
My first experience with 777 over three years ago was in my C&B Remington revolvers. I loaded like I did with BP with considerable compression. Bad experience. Wild varriations and after six shots the barrel and cylinder of the gun looked like the grand canyon with all the fouling. I was dissapointed as it was advertised to shoot clean. Checked the Hodgdons site and noted the caution about compression. The next time out I just seated the balls on the powder with minimal compression. Difference was night and day. Shot several cylinders full and only had to put a couple drops of moose milk on the base pin. Very little fouling and accuracy and consistancy was back.
Since then I've loaded a lot of it in BP cartridge guns with excellent results. I can shoot several matches with my Sharps and the barrel is never more than one shot dirty.
It does have a higher ignition point than black powder which is why it does not work well for priming and you need to use 10gr of real black as a booster with the main charge in a flintlock to get fast ignition. Like Paul says you can get very fast ignition with a properly set up and loaded flinter. You don't have to put up with klatch-fsssst-boom.
My first experience with 777 over three years ago was in my C&B Remington revolvers. I loaded like I did with BP with considerable compression. Bad experience. Wild varriations and after six shots the barrel and cylinder of the gun looked like the grand canyon with all the fouling. I was dissapointed as it was advertised to shoot clean. Checked the Hodgdons site and noted the caution about compression. The next time out I just seated the balls on the powder with minimal compression. Difference was night and day. Shot several cylinders full and only had to put a couple drops of moose milk on the base pin. Very little fouling and accuracy and consistancy was back.
Since then I've loaded a lot of it in BP cartridge guns with excellent results. I can shoot several matches with my Sharps and the barrel is never more than one shot dirty.
It does have a higher ignition point than black powder which is why it does not work well for priming and you need to use 10gr of real black as a booster with the main charge in a flintlock to get fast ignition. Like Paul says you can get very fast ignition with a properly set up and loaded flinter. You don't have to put up with klatch-fsssst-boom.
Walks with fire
54 Cal.
I agree Mike; I don't pick either. I tried it for a while but don't ever anymore. I do run a pipe cleaner through the vent and clean the patent breech on my rifle every shot unless I am just plinking or offhand practice. I sight in on a spanking clean barrel and keep it that way when used in hunting. I want the powder kissing right out to the pan and consistant compression does that for me. I do believe in paying attention to vent diameter for 3f or 2f. Actually the .070 stock TC hex vent is just about perfect for both.
I did help a guy at the range the other day that was shoot Triple7 in his flinter. I shot it a couple of times for him and it did fire ok but it was about 60 degrees or so. Not sure how it would work when colder. I tried to steer him towards real black but he would have no part of it. To each his own. I wouldn't use anything else and Goex is as good as any.
I did help a guy at the range the other day that was shoot Triple7 in his flinter. I shot it a couple of times for him and it did fire ok but it was about 60 degrees or so. Not sure how it would work when colder. I tried to steer him towards real black but he would have no part of it. To each his own. I wouldn't use anything else and Goex is as good as any.
