Black Powder vs Synthetic

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deanscamaro

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Okay, guys, I don't know whether this is appropriate or not, but as a newbie I am going to try and consolidate thinking here. I did a search on the selection of powder (black vs. synthetic) and couldn't find anything summarized (it was so strung out) that really answered my questions (I really didn't try and go back 3-4 years). Can you summarize it down to what the real differences are between them and what the negatives/positives are with the synthetics? I see things like it doesn't ignite as well, it leaves less corrosive residue, it takes the same volume, black is harder to get/more expensive, etc. etc. etc. But, really, why is it better or not better to go synthetic? I know I will get varying opinions, but maybe I can get them summarized in one place. I am getting to the point of having to get ready to sight in and I would like to know what to go with.
:hmm: :hmm: :hmm: :grin: :grin:
 
the only drawback to real black is availability in your area, which can be overcome by mail order.
everything else is like it says, a "substitute".
 
There was an article in Muzzle Blasts a year or so ago that tested the various substitute powder then, and rated them, for everything but price. Black powder is still the cheapest to buy. Pyrodex probably comes in second. Pyrodex is the oldest and most well know of the substitutes. Golden, and Triple 7 and any others you see, including some made by GOEX itself all burn at hotter temperatures, as does Pyrodex, compared to BP. For a Flintlock, you really have no choice but to use Black Powder.

Most of the subs omit the sulphur found in Black Powder, and use some other oxidizer than Potassium Nitrate. Most if not all the subs take on moisture from the air, and deteriorate after the can is opened, exposing the contents to air. Black Powder doesn't. Black Powder has an infinite life span, provided its kept cool and dry. If black powder gets wet or damp, it can be dried out, and it will still fire. The subs, once wet or damp, change chemically, and don't burn(fire) very well, if at all, even when dried. In spite of what anyone says to the contrary, the subs do corrode barrels, and do require the barrel and action to be cleaned after shooting, just as BP requires attention to cleaning. Because the subs are usually used in modern zip guns, and employ plastice wads, and copper jacketed bullets, you usually have to use modern gun solvents to clean them, to get the plastic, or copper out of the barrel, in addition to using soap and water to neutralize and clean out the powder residue. Black Powder can be clean with just soap and water. Both require that guns be oiled or greased, for storage between firings.

So the main difference between Black Powder and the subs is that black powder is cheaper, its no longer available at your local sporting good store, because of storage regulations, but can be shipped to you directly, at a substantial price savings; all the powder measures and loading data are listed for real black powder, so you don't have to convert anything, and black powder has an infinite shelf life.

The subs are much more expensive to buy, although available at your discount sports store, will not work in flintlocks unless you also use black powder to help ignite the sub, has a limited shelf life, and has to be loaded by volume, based on the equivalent volume of real black powder.

Some of these powders are so new that sufficient use of them has not yet occurred to generate data from more than one lot of the powder to see how consistent the powder is from lot to lot.

In Black Powder, there is only one US manufacturer, and that is GOEX. If keeping jobs in AMerica is important to you, buy Goex. We can also get Swiss powder, made in Austria, I believe, and we can get Wano, Schuetzen, and Graf& Sons( company brand) powders, all made by the same company in Hungary or the Czech Republic, if I recall correctly. There is a Chinese made powder that is available in Australia and New Zealand, but I can't remember its name.

The Swiss powder is generally consider to be the " Hottest", ie., creates the highest pressure and velocity, of the powders. I think Golden and Triple 7 are fighting it out for the fastest velocity producing sub powder.

I have never seen Golden for sale anywhere, although its obviously being sold. I asked all over Friendship the first year it was out, and no one had any. The same thing happened a couple of years later when Triple 7 came out. Now that it costs about twice what I pay for black powder, I am no longer interested.
 
deano,

I used Pyrodex when I first started in this sport. I used it because at the time the internet was in it's infancy (so no knowledeable input from the multitude of others) and I was basically starting out under my own power. After a short while (six months to a year) I heard about and joined a local muzzleloading club. The club members had a wealth of knowledge, and also became good friends. The membership also pitched in and bought cases of real BP to distribute to members only. It was then when I switched to real BP only, and haven't looked back. So, other than Pyrodex, I have no personal experience with any of the other subs.

So, that said, here're my "pros and cons" based on MY experience only.

Pyrodex --- pros - less fouling, especially where smaller caliber guns are in play; loads vol to vol the same as BP; usually available at most places that sells guns and reloading supplies.
> cons - attracts moisture more than BP; expensive (even way back when); seems to have a reduced shelf life after opened (i.e. it looses power from year to year); is definitely more corrosive than BP unless you clean IMMEDIATELY after you finish shooting; is NO EASIER to clean up after shooting than real BP.

Real BP --- pros - if it gets wet, just dry it and it's as good as new; cheaper than any subs I am familiar with; goes boom every time; has a lower ignition temperature; is as easy to clean (if not easier) than subs (at least Pyrodex); has a very long shelf life.
> cons - you can't usually buy it locally, over the counter, but it is available by mail order from several places (you have to buy 5, 10 or 25 pound lots to make the economics work); I can't think of any more.

So, the decision is up to you. I shoot nothing but real BP by choice. I live about 125 miles from one distributor and if I'm driving by, I stop in and pick up what I need (want) and save the hazmat and shipping fees. I go to Powder, Inc and at last check 25# of BP was less than $12 per pound (including hazmat and shipping) at my front door. Last time I even looked, the least expensive sub was over $20 per pound. There's nothing like the smell of spent BP with your coffee in the morning.

As I started out saying, these are only MY opinions. I'm sure others will agree with some and dispute some others. All you can do is decide for yourself.
 
I use Goex 3f but I have several others.
Black mag 3 is by far the cleanest powder around, but cost the most and is the hardest to find.
All require clean up. I have to say I am hooked on the smoke and the smell of the old type of powder. :wink:
 
The only substitutes I've used are Pyrodex and 777. When Pyrodex first hit the market, I was young and impressionable. Anything new had to be better than "that old stuff" so I switched to Pyrodex. I shot it exclusively for several years before switching back to the real stuff in disgust. I never got as good of groups with Pyrodex, no matter what I tried. It didn't foul as much between shots, but cleaning out the fouling was harder. Black powder fouling is softer and washes out with soapy water.

I have only used 2 cans of 777. It generates more velocity than black powder or Pyrodex. If I wanted more velocity, I'd just use a heavier charge of black powder! Finding the most accurate load with 777 put it in the same velocity range as black powder, so I just gave up on it. It is pretty clean burning though. They say it can be cleaned with nothing but water, but don't believe it. It leaves a baked on carbon deposit that needs a heckuva lot of scrubbing to remove. I ended up having to use Mpro-7 to get it clean. Needless to say, I stopped using it for the most part. Now and then I still toss a heavy charge of it in one of my revolvers when I want a little extra fury, but the groups open up a lot.

For me, I've come full circle and am back to black powder to stay. I order in bulk from Powder Inc., and it's cheaper than any of the substitutes. It just works better for me and the way I shoot.

To be honest, if the substitutes worked better for me, I'd use them. I'm not such a die hard traditionalist that I'd sacrifice performance to stay traditional.
 
well i was just about to have a really good tirade, but i think Paul got it on the first try. i still have some Pyrodex which i shoot through a cap&ball revolver but when that's done i won't especially miss the stuff.

just one guy's opinion.
 
Thanks to Paul for doing the typing - he pretty much drove the tack in.

My experience: I started with some real black made by a small outfit in Arkansas, but they were not really reliable as their plant kept burning down (!). I switched to Pyrodex when it first came out and to make a long story short absolutely ruined a nice revolver barrel by not cleaning it soon enough or well enough. Immediately went back to real black and haven't used Pyrodex since.

Now that real black is more difficult to get (there are two places locally that carry it, both over an hour's drive one way) I use 777 when the supply runs out. I much prefer using real black, however. Sometimes I run out and can't make/justify the drive to resupply, so a guy does what a guy's gotta do: 777.

I really have no beef with 777; I do load it down 10 to 15%. I get good groups, and I always clean the same way as with real black, so no issues there. I've heard of the dreaded 'crud ring' but have not experienced it, perhaps because I switch back to real black fairly soon.
 
I have obtained slightly tighter groups with PYRO in my BP revolvers - by maybe a smidgeon. but the cost and cleaning trouble make it hardly wothwhile. the pellets they make could conceivably be mighty handy tho. but I carry spare loads for my revolvers in fired cases that are stoppered. handy for fast re-loads.
 
Some fake BP is non-corrosive but suck water from the air at an alarming rate and thus may become unusable in a short time after being opened or if stored in a container that is not perfectly air tight. Some produce aggressively corrosive fouling compared to BP and requires a lot more cleaning to be sure its "safe". None work in flintlocks.
Barrels ruined in a few hours. Fouling that will rust under and oil film. Anything with water content, like Hoppe's #9 will turn it super corrosive.
If you can be black its the best choice. You can order BP in 5 pound lots from most distributors. FFFG works best in most rifles using patched round balls.
Pyrodex will function as an explosive at 20% water content (pourable slurry) according the the patent. It's fouling rates as "aggressively corrosive".
None of these things are really new so far as I can tell. They are modifications of things found wanting and abandoned in the 19th century in most cases.

Dan
 
Shooting muzzleloaders with substitutes for black powder seems to me like going to a brew pub and ordering a bottle of lite beer.
 
Guys, I really appreciate everything you all have come back with. It is just what I was looking for and it helps. I think I now have enough info to make a decision on what to use. The info was all in one place and that made it much easier.

:bow: :bow: :bow:
 
Dan Phariss said:
Barrels ruined in a few hours. Fouling that will rust under and oil film. Anything with water content, like Hoppe's #9 will turn it super corrosive.Dan

I can vouch for that comment. Last year a newbie shooter practically destroyed a brand new ROA by leaving it uncleaned for a week after shooting Pyrodex. He called me up to ask what he could do about the 'rough' patches he had found in the barrel after eventually cleaning it.

The 'rough patches' were the worst case of barrel corrosion I had seen this side of a wall-hanger, and has not quite ruined the barrel, but he'll never be able to sell it.

tac
 
I bought my first ML in a sporting goods store that didn't sell BP. Pyrodex was brand new at the time and they sold that, so I bought a can. I used it up but hated it. After that I bought nothing but Goex. Much, much later, I tried Pyrodex again because I couldn't find BP locally. The newer stuff is definately better than the original, but I still prefer black for all the reasons listed above. I've been using Graf's lately, and it seems to foul less than I remember Goex doing, but I haven't done an actual comparison to see if that's true, so it might be a case of failing memory.

You have to buy a lot to dilute the Hazmat fee, but think of it this way; the price won't do anything but go up, so you'll be shooting quite a while from now at this year's price. Again, I don't know if that's completely true, but my wife seems to buy into it when she sees the bill for the order. :wink:
 
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