Bluing

[Kabo1313]

Not sure if this is the correct place to put this question but here goes.

Where can I find a person/company that will re-blue my Traditions Pennsylvania barrel.....inside and out.

I am sure, with a tank long enough, the inside is not more difficult than the outside (which I have already sanded to 2000 but can take it back to 400 or 600....whatever the company wants. Of course, as everyone knows, the big problem is that the vast majority of tanks are only 40" and with my breech plug/tang still on the gun, it makes it 42".

Anybody know someone that they could recommend?

 

[LeMat1856]

Bo Harden,

all right, go with me on this one:

1) brownells did do gunsmithing at one time. i called them at 1-800-741-0015, and Holly told me they did bluing long long ago, but not anymore.

"can you recommend anyone ?" i asked. she said, "give mark penrod (in illinois) a call. he's the best gunsmith i know." and then she added "tell him Holly sent you." ok, i answered, and thanked her for the assistance.

2) mark penrod: 1-260-982-8385 (and don't forget to mention Holly at Brownells).

let me know if that helps.

later,
~d~

 

[matt denison]

"...inside and out."


Huh? Do you want the bore blued too?

 

[M. De Land]

Yes, with hot acid bluing the bore can safely be blued right along with the exterior and is actually supposed to add some resistance to erosion.I can't prove the last part one way or the other from my experience with the process.
I only rust blue and brown any more as I believe it is far superior in looks and durability but is time consuming and usually twice as expensive as hot tank bluing.
Bores should not be cold rust blued as it etches the surface. Mike D.

 

[kruzer1]

If your a Do it yourself guy you can go with slow rust bluing. If done by yourself the set up is not expensive (you can build a steam tube instead of a tank). It will take more effort however it will be durable, better looking and period for a muzzleloader build.

Here are some instructions, the website that sells it also has good product. I did a barrel with four applications over a weekend, and previously had usually spent 1-2 weeks doing a barrel (not counting prep which is the most time consuming):
http://www.rustblue.com/about/instructions/

 

[Lock Nut]

Steam blue instead of boiling. That's very interesting and seems like an easier way instead of boiling. I read the instructions. Has anyone tried this? My concern is does the color come out uniformly when hanging the barrel vertically. :hmm:

 

[galamb]

Just take a look at page 7 of the thread #3 Hawken Full Stock (in the Gun builder's bench) where your thread is posted.

Sean just finished rust bluing his barrel.

Now if anyone wouldn't be more than satisfied with the result he got "doing it yourself" then not sure what they might be looking for.

 

[M. De Land]

Take it out in the bright sun light and look at angles to it. Any spotting,striping or thin spots will show up like a sore thumb. Mike D.

 

[kruzer1]

I'm on another forum and have heard from at least a dozen folks that have used steaming with great results. Not tried it myself though as I already have a tank.

Those that steam argue it is better since there are no mineral or water impurities to worry about.

Rust bluing with steaming was used in the 19th century for factory produced centerfires (mausers) not sure about muzzle-loaders though.

 

[M. De Land]

I have not tried the steam but would think the more efficient heat conduction from the hot water tank would loosen the oxides better and allow a more thorough carding for deeper solution penetration.
I have experimented with adding solution in between rust cabinet sessions without the boiling and just do the cardings than back in the cabinet for another rusting period.
At the end I did one boiling to turn the oxides black. This is a chemical change as well as oxide loosening and is the reason it turns dark.
It looked good but had no wear resistance and in a short time looked spotty and streaked.
The boiling is essential to get oxides loose so the carding can more thoroughly remove them before applying fresh solution, with this method.
I have never had any trouble using my tap water for the boiling but would expect distilled or deionized water to be a better medium choice in a highly mineralized area.
I know I definitely need distilled water for my case hardening jobs. Mike D.

 

[Kabo1313]

Thanks LeMat, I will do that in the morning for sure.

For the others, I appreciate your ideas but I have tried cold bluing many, many times and IMO it looks like whatever vulgar word you might want to use. It is probably my technique but I would rather have it hot blued to match the rest of the gun anyway.

I have sanded it to a mirror polish but can take it back to whatever grade is needed.

BTW, I am having a gun built by TVM that is being totally rust blued and that will be the first gun that I will ever see in that fashion.

And, oh by the way, the reason I need to have the inside of the barrel blued is because when I very first started that barrel was attached the first gun I was going to shoot and on my first load, I jammed the ramrod and so it sat in my closet for 10 years constantly corroding the breech plug and barrel. So, after 10 years and finally getting on this forum, someone told me a guy I could send the barrel to and he would check it out and smoothbore it out to the closest "usable" caliber that would work and I would be able to find balls for. So, I sent it to him and he smoothbored it from .50 caliber to .54 caliber with a smoothbore. Therefore, at the present time, it is exposed metal and needs to have some sort of "covering" to make it not so easily rust.

 

[kruzer1]

I understand your reasoning for not wanting to blue yourself, but for new people reading this, know that true rust bluing is not "cold bluing". The finish is much richer than "hot blue" and a lot tougher. (there's a reason slow rust bluing is often called "King of the Blues")

I challenged a friend to take a key and scratch up a rust blue part I had done and he could not. I don't know of any hot blue that can say the same.

Now as far as the other products out there, I agree I would not mess with any of those cold bluing products as they are not that durable.

As with any bluing job (cold, rust blue, or hot) it all depends on the time prepping the metal.

 

[M. De Land]

I have come to love the rust blue developed by Thomas Shelhammer who worked for Neidner gun works of Diawoc Michigan in the 1950's I believe.
The solution is made of nitric and hydrochloric acid, dissolved black wire and distilled water.
The rusting sessions are only three hours long allowing two passes per day and in an air circulating, heated rust cabinet, 6-7 passes will take it to completion.
Roy Dunlap, a rather famous 50's era gunsmith wrote of the process after trying others "Once you get the Neidner rust process right no other blue will seem very good to you."
I have come to agree with his appraisal as it will resist most wear short of a file.

 

[Twowithone]

Do NOT send it to Precision Bluing in Greene, NY,I just did and it was a bad mistake on my part. Listen to the folk on here and they will help you out for sure.

 

[Kabo1313]

I just got it back from Precision Bluing after 7 weeks and they said they could not blue it because it was too long, with the tang on it, and they would not remove the tang and do it separately.

I am going to give Mark Penrod a call, this afternoon, as LeMat suggested.

BTW, I remeasured the barrel, with the tang still on it, came up with 42" but the barrel itself is 40.5 inches. Couldn't a bluer just remove the tang and lay the barrel kind of clockwise/counter clockwise in the tank and fit perfectly? If a bluing tank is wider than 6 inches, it seems that would be a very simple matter. Anyway, just rambling. I'll let everyone know after I call Mark.

 

[jamesthomas]

7 weeks?? That place would have been having me walk through their front door after 2 weeks, and they would NOT like it. They should have told you the minute they received it that the barrel was too long and sent it back ASAP, I'm :cursing: about it and it's not even my barrel.

 

[M. De Land]

Standard hot blue tanks are 40 inches long and the barrel needs to be center hung for best results from the bluing salts.
Some folks plug their bores although it is not really necessary and the plugs would make the barrel to long even it it were hung in the tank kiddy corner.
I am perplexed that it took them seven weeks to figure out they couldn't or wouldn't do it. Mike D.

 

[Kabo1313]

In response to armakiller and M.D., well, what the lady said was that her husband had been put in the hospital and that my stuff had just gotten lost in the shuffle. She apologized and IF I decided to have them try to do something else that they would take 15% off of that.

Thanks for the explanation of the bluing tank but/because I should have figured it out. I didn't know about the hanging part but I did know about plugging both ends.

I am going to contact the guy I mentioned earlier, later, but it is still interesting that with so many long guns out, many longer than mine, why don't they make hot bluing tanks longer than 40 inches...maybe 50 inches would cover everything.

 

[Dan Whalen]

Hot Flash refinshing. Google it. Just had a long Rifle barrel done by them. I polished and got a dip only. $66.00 total and that included shipping back. Got a 48" tube from a Fed Ex outlet. Very beautiful job. Highly recommend. Dan Edit: only company I found with a long tank.

 

[M. De Land]

I would just cut the end off one and weld on part of another tank if it were needed. They are usually made of mild steel and would be no big deal.
Rust blue or browning is the traditional norm for muzzle loaders and they tend to have longer barrels than do modern guns which are mostly hot acid blued. Course all reproduction muzzle loaders are hot blued.
I stopped hot acid bluing after discovering that it is inferior to rust blue both in durability and quality besides being hot and messy to do.
A long barrel on a modern gun will be 26 inches but is almost always screwed onto a receiver and blued as a unit which will make the whole deal usually not longer than 32-34 inches, pretty common length for many muzzle loading barrels as well.
In hot acid bluing one does not want the barrel to make contact with the tank sides or bottom. Mike D.