Bought a pieta 1858 Remington. Looking for some load data and answers.

[mikesto44]

Personally I wouldn't carry a b.p. pistol for self defense. I carry everyday and no I'm not paranoid. But to me self protection is more about reading people in your daily travels that means more. Keep your head up, look people eye to eye and don't look timid.
There's a lot of responsibility in carrying a firearm. Most people that I have been involved in teaching gun safety. Lack the emotional strength in using it if they have too.
Most classes that I have taken don't teach anything about situational awareness. Neither do they teach what to say an do if you have to use your gun or the aftermath afterwards.
It's ok you know how to shoot the gun. So your ok to carry it...that will be $125.00 good by.... Here's your permit...

 

[donniethekidd]

The scariest issue about carrying an 1858 for self defence is that the bad guy you might have to shoot won't have a gun like yours. From the gets go you at a possibly deadly disadvantage. This ain't the 19th Century. It matters not at all how many cowboys and wild Indians died from an 1858. Things are a bit different now.

Well done, sir. And thank you. God bless and keep you.

I've had guys walk up on me with rifles in trails I just duck behind a tree and draw my two 1858 and use the tree as a body shield it only takes one round ball center mass a bullet is a bullet weather it's a 556 or a.457 round ball over some powder i carry because I've seen what kind of real evil is out there. Also I have small bears in my area. edit....i also carry a 1858 carbine and while ill prolly never have to in my life time i wont hesitate to engage anything two or four legs in the woods or public if necessary i live in a pretty peaceful place but we have idiots/crackheads and mama bears with cubs in the winter. god bless i want everyone in the world the have a gun god made us all and colt made us all equal!!! praise the lord and pass the ammunition XD

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

The scariest issue about carrying an 1858 for self defence is that the bad guy you might have to shoot won't have a gun like yours. From the gets go you at a possibly deadly disadvantage. This ain't the 19th Century. It matters not at all how many cowboys and wild Indians died from an 1858. Things are a bit different now.

Well done, sir. And thank you. God bless and keep you.

Not as great of a disadvantage as a pocket knife.

 

[mikesto44]

If their within twenty feet of you. Quite possibly their going to stick you before you can draw an fire your weapon..
Also what most people don't understand is the fact. If you don't hit the spine or the bean pot and their high on drugs. You best know your weapon and how to use it. Because their not falling down otherwise. It isn't Hollywood.. Adrenaline does strange things to people.
Just saying...

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

If their within twenty feet of you. Quite possibly their going to stick you before you can draw an fire your weapon..
Also what most people don't understand is the fact. If you don't hit the spine or the bean pot and their high on drugs. You best know your weapon and how to use it. Because their not falling down otherwise. It isn't Hollywood.. Adrenaline does strange things to people.
Just saying...

I ment not as much as a disadvantage as having a knife. Before the consideration of a cap and ball I carried a fixed blade. I would rather have my 1858 than a knife.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

For a kid, you're much more articulate than I was at your age. I also don't see why you're getting the response you are by some folks that were likely the same way when they were 18.

I get it, you can't carry a firearm so you're going to use what you can. Throw 30 grains of your favorite 3f powder and stick a round ball on it and go about your day.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I also don't see why you're getting the response you are by some folks that were likely the same way when they were 18.

Because most of the replies are from folks who were that age in the 1980's or earlier, and the world is different, especially the courts, than they were in the 1980's.

LD

 

[smokeum54]

I would like to see the 58 that holds 60gr with a round ball.

 

[sethwyo]

My medium length 58 army is so much fun for planking at the tin cans, I only load about 20 grain of powder, it's a lot of fun.

wounding and crippling a deer is not fun.

trying to put all that powder in there,
as has been stated here already ,
you're going to just burn all that powder in a flash and bang that isn't going to result in any more range.

The only thing you can really do if you're sure you want to try that is to go ahead and load it up the way you want and try doing some target shooting and test its penetration on things such as phone books or water jugs to see how much it's going to penetrate and if it's going to be accurate enough to take a deer at 50 yards or however close you really think you can get.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

My medium length 58 army is so much fun for planking at the tin cans, I only load about 20 grain of powder, it's a lot of fun.

wounding and crippling a deer is not fun.

trying to put all that powder in there,
as has been stated here already ,
you're going to just burn all that powder in a flash and bang that isn't going to result in any more range.

The only thing you can really do if you're sure you want to try that is to go ahead and load it up the way you want and try doing some target shooting and test its penetration on things such as phone books or water jugs to see how much it's going to penetrate and if it's going to be accurate enough to take a deer at 50 yards or however close you really think you can get.

Bow stand has deer at 15 yards. I refuse to shoot past 15 yards. Secondly diminishing returns is still returns. Water acts as a solid when hit with velocity so it is a poor test medium. Soft powder dirt is a good comparative medium. I can compare the 1858 to a 45acp 44 special 44mag ect. So I won't shoot a deer and wound it I intend to have a very good idea of the performance the revolver has.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

I would like to see the 58 that holds 60gr with a round ball.

No problem I'll show it next time I got to the range. It only works with pyrodex because of its compressibility

 

[nkbj]

In the 1970's I answered a call and cleared a house in Houston with what I had, my 1861 loaded with bullets made with an altered* Lee Precision 9mm mold. The look on the faces of HPD when they finally arrived and saw the kid with the 1861 was memorable.

*Used a 3/8" drill.

 

[nkbj]

I used to shoot them but we've become...

close.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

My only complaint about the new 1858s is a common problem. Some, but not all, have an issue with the latch post on the end of the barrel breaking. My original broke on the 12th or so shot. Cabellas was good about the replacement and told me I was the 2nd person that day with the same issue.

A little research turned up a lot of folks with the same problem over the last few years.

That being said, the replacement I got has fired a lot of hotter loads with no issues whatsoever!

I replaced mine with a very high tec bread tie. It broke shooting 50gn of pyrodex under a bullet of my own design. Made a mold that is a hollow based wad cutter. It lets you fit 50 to 60gn of pyrodex under a 190gn projectile. Not the best idea lol.

 

[muzzleloadingat18]

First its a beyond iffy carry for SD but if you want to, that is your right to do so. No one said we should be protected from poor decisions, just that it should not impact the rest of us.

You already have your metric for what works, you are shooting animals. Nothing replaces an animal though you mostly shoot those from the side so its not a full front human.

Ballistic gel or you home made gel is far better. It does not duplicate shooting people but it gives you a comparison of penetration or lack there of. Its somewhat analogous to a body but lacks the cloth layers and ribs (center of mass)

It sounds like you are having fun playing with it but if you are serious and want to carry a BP pistol, get a conversion cylinder for it and use a proven cartdige and bullet. Maybe not as fun as playing with things but the reality is you are trying to reinvent the airplane.

The bullet and cartridge mfgs have spent tens of millions and have real research behind them. You are not going to even come close.

And dirt? Tells you nothing.

String up your deer and put some rounds into it from the front, that will tell you something relevant.

Penetration is a combination of lead hardness and holding together, that is why modern SD ammo is built the way it is. The guides up here have shifted to a 45-70 cartridge gun (usually the level action) with hard cast lead to penetration on a brown bear. )

I hunted with a 7 mm and you are not going to beat 2800 fps at 175 grain hunting bullet in your wildest dreams with a hand gun. Have I carried a hand gun? Yes. Its better than nothing but its a poor 2nd to a good rifle and hunting bull

Not reinventing the plain. Just reminding people a ww2 bomber will kill you just as dead as an f-15

 

[rodwha]

Difficult to turn these old pistol designs in magnums, but that doesn’t mean people won’t continue to try. While not recommended in a 58, remember getting near 1000 FPS with a roundball over 40 or so grains of 4F in a ROA (7-1/2” barrel), and maybe 825 FPS with a 185 grain conical over 30+ grains of 4F. Velocity was significantly lower with 3F or 2F, and with a 5-1/2” barrel, imagine even more unburnt powder will be blown out the barrel. These 4F loads were shot before all the modern thinkers arrived on the internet and was based on Lyman published data. Before anyone’s hair spontaneously combusts, I wouldn’t recommend the conical 4F max load in a 58 just because I haven’t tried it. And it’s just not recommended today. A ROA is a much stronger gun. But the roundball load in a 1858 or 1860…..

Best way to know velocity in your gun is to run it over a chronograph. Barrel length, cylinder gap, powder, bullet diameter and bullet weight are all factors. I’d expect less than 700 with Pyrodex, maybe near 700 with T7 3F or Swiss 3F. Let us know what the chronograph says.

Odd, having read up to this point not once did I see mention of making a cap n ball revolver into a magnum. Could you show me where I missed this?

 

[rodwha]

Difficult to turn these old pistol designs in magnums, but that doesn’t mean people won’t continue to try. While not recommended in a 58, remember getting near 1000 FPS with a roundball over 40 or so grains of 4F in a ROA (7-1/2” barrel), and maybe 825 FPS with a 185 grain conical over 30+ grains of 4F. Velocity was significantly lower with 3F or 2F, and with a 5-1/2” barrel, imagine even more unburnt powder will be blown out the barrel. These 4F loads were shot before all the modern thinkers arrived on the internet and was based on Lyman published data. Before anyone’s hair spontaneously combusts, I wouldn’t recommend the conical 4F max load in a 58 just because I haven’t tried it. And it’s just not recommended today. A ROA is a much stronger gun. But the roundball load in a 1858 or 1860…..

Best way to know velocity in your gun is to run it over a chronograph. Barrel length, cylinder gap, powder, bullet diameter and bullet weight are all factors. I’d expect less than 700 with Pyrodex, maybe near 700 with T7 3F or Swiss 3F. Let us know what the chronograph says.

Those velocity numbers have been beaten by sporting grade powders. There’s plenty of published chronographed results. There’s an extremely easy one showing a 5.5” vs a 7.5” ROA comparing 3F Goex to extremely reduced loads of 3F Triple 7 using a ball, the 220 grn Lee RN, and Kaido’s custom 255 Lee bullet done by Mike Beliveau, a well trusted member.



You might be interested in reading Percussion Revolvers by Cumpston and Bates.

Or even the Lyman Black Powder Handbook 2nd Edition shows an 8” .44 with 30 grns of Pyrodex P and a 180 grn Buffalo Bullet obtaining 802 fps. The Ruger with the 190 grn Buffalo Bullet and 40 grns of Pyrodex P is shown to achieve 1157 fps.

There’s plenty of info out there.

 

[SDSmlf]

Odd, having read up to this point not once did I see mention of making a cap n ball revolver into a magnum. Could you show me where I missed this?

Maybe it was me when I responded to the OP back in January (over 230 posts on this thread since my post and I have not read them all). When I read ‘I think I can cram 35gn of pyrodex under it’, I didn’t think the OP was looking for an accuracy load.

I have a 200gn deep hollow point for 45acp that I think will work wonderfully. I think I can cram 35gn of pyrodex under it. What velocity am I looking forward to.

 

[rodwha]

I doubt that using 40 grains of powder would result in any realistic gain in a 5.5" barrel. That short barrel will not effectively burn all that powder. You WILL get tremendous recoil, horrible muzzle flash, and probably abysmal accuracy. I actually shoot better with the Colt style sights, but I've been doing it four plus decades. The Colts tend to shoot high, even more so with conicals. Some Pietta's will not shoot conicals well due to the slow twist rate (1 in 30") of their revolvers. I have posted a lot of chrono data on this forum, including side by side results using my 5.5" and 8" Pietta Remingtons. You can find thise threads using the search. A round ball at 1100 fps, very doable in a 8" barrel, might be a better option than a conical. Don't get caught up in "Magnum Mania" and getting all impressed by ft./lbs. of energy. Round Balls are very effective killers, have less recoil, and are usually more accurate. That is true for your Hawken Rifle also, PRB's are my go to projectiles in my rifles, and i use a very moderate powder charge, 60 grains (volume) in my .54's. Kills deer and bear just fine.

My 2013 Pietta has a 1:16” twist.

 

[rodwha]

I have the Piettas, and have no complaints. The constant argument of Pietta versus Uberti is odl worn and lame IMHO. I have this Pietta 1858 Remington, 2012 manuf. date. It is perfect. Smooth, locks up correctly and the fit and finish is as good as any firearm modern or old. I took a few pics. This one is unfired. I just purchased a second one, a twin, because i wanted to have a "brace" of pistols and also have one that I can use a conversion cylinder in easily and the Remingtons foot the bill. I will compare the build quality of the new one when it arrives this week, and update with a review of this new acquisition. You can't go wrong with the Pietta ,IMHO YMMV

I have a few complaints concerning the Pietta NMA vs Uberti’s. The grossly undersized chambers of 0.446” with a groove diameter of 0.4535” on mine. I had mine reed to 0.449”. Uberti’s come with 0.450” from what I understand.

The next is that the loading window/port isn’t big enough for most conicals or my wide flat nosed bullets. I had to open that up quite a bit. Not so with the Uberti.

Then there’s the safety notches that the hammer nose doesn’t fit into squarely. I had to reshape the hammer profile so that it does. I don’t think Uberti’s need this done.

I’d prefer the slightly slimmer frame and grip of the Uberti.

I also have a press fit sight and a pistol that shoots left. I can’t fix this unless I dovetail one myself, which I might do.

Now that I’ve done so much to my pistol I really love it. It’s been great.