Bow and arrow verses Flint Guns

[oreclan]

they starved us, then got us hooked on fufraw like pots and pans. then stuff like pan cakes and waffles. caned beef was next. of course those white womens were and are hard to resist!

The native Americans lived a hard, but fulfilling life that was adapted to their environment prior to European contact.
Post contact they coveted the European's technological advances. In some ways it made their lives easier. These newcomers only wanted furs which were easy to harvest, or land which was free and abundant , or slaves which were captured by the warriors from their enemies.
Firearms and ammunition were readily available from the whites and much easier to master, and made it easier to harvest furs, and conquer their enemies.
In some cases entire tribes were eliminated.
Read "Thundersticks Firearms and the Violent Transformation of Native America "by David J. Silverman .

 

[oreclan]

Short answer; attrition .

Weapons of the time had very little to do with it. One of the main factors not often discussed is that many of the tribes had been fighting and killing each other for decades before the Europeans ever arrived. This lack of unity among the tribes was likely the biggest factor to native peoples downfall. Had all the tribes in North America been united towards the single goal of destroying the Europeans it may have turned out differently.

AND greed!

 

[Coot]

If the spine on a Carbon Arrow was relevant to the poundage on a self bow then why cannot it be used? It would just have to be refletched using feathers.
it would still be subjected to "Archers Paradox" just as everything else. Just a shaft with different material

On the subject of native arrows, in 1962, my father brought back a set of native bow & arrows from the upper Amazon. The arrows were about 40" long. The front 1/2 was something like iron wood & the rear 1/2, cane. Natural feathers & a small unbarbed bone tip that supposedly was dipped in poison.

 

[EcoRover]

what about tobacco introduced to Europeans? how many deaths came from that? years ago when all the AG's were suing cigarette makers I said why dont they sue the Indians. where are our reparations for all the deaths from smoking? 8 million a year die from smoking add that up from decades

Sigh. Colonizers took the Tribes' lands by force in most cases. No one forced the colonizers to use tobacco, however. Similarly, no one asked African people to step on board for a little voyage to the Americas.. . .

 

[EcoRover]

AND greed!

Excellent point. And though we use "Europeans" as a homogeneous term, The French, English, Spanish and others were all at war with each other as well. Native Tribes certainly exploited the inter-European wars for their own gains, as with the French vs English war 1744-1748 ("King George's War"), much to young George Washington's chagrin.

 

[smoothshooter]

Sigh. Colonizers took the Tribes' lands by force in most cases. No one forced the colonizers to use tobacco, however. Similarly, no one asked African people to step on board for a little voyage to the Americas.. . .

Yeah, the Muslims did that

 

[Notchy Bob]

If the spine on a Carbon Arrow was relevant to the poundage on a self bow then why cannot it be used? It would just have to be refletched using feathers.
it would still be subjected to "Archers Paradox" just as everything else. Just a shaft with different material

I think it’s more an issue of the physical weight of the carbon shaft than spine. Someone in a previous post likened it to dry firing with a self bow, because carbon shafts are light in weight, regardless of their spine.

The old time “rule of thumb” for arrow weight was 9 grains per pound of draw weight. For example, a 60 pound bow should have a 540 grain arrow. Tink Nathan, a well-known bowhunting authority 20-30 years ago and a heavy arrow advocate, recommended 10 grains per pound at minimum for any hunting bow. I forget what he called them, but for a while Tink was marketing arrows and shafts that had a Forgewood (compressed wood) core within a tubular fiberglass shaft. I think these weighed 800-1,000 grains. They never really caught on. He came up with these about the time 3-D archery started to boom, and everybody wanted fast, flat-shooting arrows. Tink also advocated the use of extremely high-poundage bows. His arrows hit hard and penetrated deep, but fast they were not.

Notchy Bob

 

[Antelope Pete]

I guess when all is said and done while Indians still used the bow for various uses they still wanted guns, from the flintlock era all the way to the cartridge era. That's been well documented.

 

[EcoRover]

Yeah, the Muslims did that

Actually most slaves taken by Muslims were sold to the Middle and Far East. The Portuguese and then the British and French

were the main slave traders to North America.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Don't forget the Thompson brothers. They used bows before, and after the Civil War. Post Civil War by necessity (they fought for the south), since their rifles were confiscated.

I've heard that and read it in books. That has been the narrative handed down for many years. However, it isn't exactly correct.

Maurice (pronounced "Morris") was born in Indiana, but the family moved to a plantation in north Georgia when he was a small child. Brother Will (that was his name... Will, not short for "William") was born in Georgia. They had a privileged childhood with a classical education and enjoyed hunting birds in the local woods with bows and arrows. In their teens, they met a hermit named Thomas Williams who lived in the woods near them. Williams was a longbowman, and taught the boys much about archery. Maurice and Will did serve the Confederacy in the war, but afterward both became lawyers and writers. They maintained their interest in archery, however, and spent weeks at a time on hunting trips in Florida, which was a fairly remote and exotic place at the time. While the southern people were generally disarmed during Reconstruction, the Thompsons at least kept their sidearms, and described carrying pistols with them in Florida as early as 1867. The pistols were used to dispatch game not killed by their arrows. These excursions to Florida were outfitted trips, with a hired camp-keeper on some of them. Maurice took one hunting trip to south Florida with a hired Seminole guide named Tommy, who was himself an archer. Tommy had become disgusted with other Seminole hunters, who were using guns. Tommy maintained that this scared all the game away. He set up a camp for himself away from the others, and that was where Maurice stayed for three weeks. Shortly after the trip to Okeechobee in 1867, both brothers moved to Indiana. They were founding members of the National Archery Association, and both had terms as president of the NAA. Will even won two bronze medals in the archery in the 1904 Olympics! Will later moved to Seattle, and I believe he became active in politics.

Maurice wrote a book entitled The Witchery of Archery, published in 1878, and reprinted several times. I have a facsimile copy printed in 1984. It is a great little book, easy to read, and full of hunting stories as well as some autobiographical sketches, and this book alone refutes a lot of the often-repeated "survival" narrative. In fact, the Thompson brothers were successful professional men, able to afford outfitted and sometimes guided sporting trips to exotic locations for bowhunting as well as expensive, imported equipment, such as snakewood bows from the "Far East," and professionally made Highfield arrows. Much of this is right there in The Witchery of Archery. They also continued to promote recreational and competitive archery and bowhunting for the rest of their lives.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[snakebit]

I've heard that and read it in books. That has been the narrative handed down for many years. However, it isn't exactly correct.

Maurice (pronounced "Morris") was born in Indiana, but the family moved to a plantation in north Georgia when he was a small child. Brother Will (that was his name... Will, not short for "William") was born in Georgia. They had a privileged childhood with a classical education and enjoyed hunting birds in the local woods with bows and arrows. In their teens, they met a hermit named Thomas Williams who lived in the woods near them. Williams was a longbowman, and taught the boys much about archery. Maurice and Will did serve the Confederacy in the war, but afterward both became lawyers and writers. They maintained their interest in archery, however, and spent weeks at a time on hunting trips in Florida, which was a fairly remote and exotic place at the time. While the southern people were generally disarmed during Reconstruction, the Thompsons at least kept their sidearms, and described carrying pistols with them in Florida as early as 1867. The pistols were used to dispatch game not killed by their arrows. These excursions to Florida were outfitted trips, with a hired camp-keeper on some of them. Maurice took one hunting trip to south Florida with a hired Seminole guide named Tommy, who was himself an archer. Tommy had become disgusted with other Seminole hunters, who were using guns. Tommy maintained that this scared all the game away. He set up a camp for himself away from the others, and that was where Maurice stayed for three weeks. Shortly after the trip to Okeechobee in 1867, both brothers moved to Indiana. They were founding members of the National Archery Association, and both had terms as president of the NAA. Will even won two bronze medals in the archery in the 1904 Olympics! Will later moved to Seattle, and I believe he became active in politics.

Maurice wrote a book entitled The Witchery of Archery, published in 1878, and reprinted several times. I have a facsimile copy printed in 1984. It is a great little book, easy to read, and full of hunting stories as well as some autobiographical sketches, and this book alone refutes a lot of the often-repeated "survival" narrative. In fact, the Thompson brothers were successful professional men, able to afford outfitted and sometimes guided sporting trips to exotic locations for bowhunting as well as expensive, imported equipment, such as snakewood bows from the "Far East," and professionally made Highfield arrows. Much of this is right there in The Witchery of Archery. They also continued to promote recreational and competitive archery and bowhunting for the rest of their lives.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

That's the write up from the introduction into the archery/bowhunting Hall of fame.

Ive also read where they learned the bow by a hermit who lived near their fathers farm who was allegedly a phenomenal archer. I'm sure there are many stories about them.

 

[sturmkatze]

Wow. That went far afield. Injuns (no i am not going to use any of the politically correct bs terms) hated each other and killed each other (ina brutal manner) long before the evyil white man came here. There was bad things on both sides. Both. And, you can’t judge things with a modern lens or sensibilities…

 

[Clark Badgett]

I don't believe I've ever read of an account of Native Americans using volley fire in battle but it could have happened occasionally in battle.
The NA was raised with a bow in their hand from youth and nothing makes one as proficient with a weapon as the one used daily to keep life and limb together so the notion of training with the bow to a N.A. would have been redundant and unnecessary
I am quite sure given the effort to make good arrows that they were retrieved as often as possible and reused.
Another fascinating aspect is the length of time it would have taken for the shear number of arrow heads we find today to have accumulated in the density they are found. I would think this is probably because of the decades and centuries of the the inhabitants using the same hunting grounds over and over again.
The chert to make good arrow and dart tips were a form of currency in trade and they would not have been wasted indiscriminately in battle or for hunting.

Many, many years ago I took a very nice arrowhead my father had found and carefully tied it to a nice arrow I had crafted. It even had a bird feather tied to the back end. I launched it from my bow and when I recovered the arrow the arrowhead was gone. Dad was furious.

 

[Eterry]

This kind of surprises me. Aside from one arrow that hit too far back, with proper placement deer have usually died within 30 yards of where I've hit them, in around a minute. Same with elk, if anything I think a sharp arrow kills a properly hit elk faster than a bullet. Those I have shot with arrows have lived less than two minutes. My X put three .30-06 180 gr. into an elks heart you could cover with your hand, and it lasted around four minutes before it figured out it was dead.

I've was taught to wait 20 to 30 minutes before approaching a deer, I know 2 guys who rushed up after the arrow; both lost their deer.
I watched one hit right behind the shoulder thrash for over 15 minutes.

Anyone who's dealt with gunshots on non animals will tell you there's no telling how they react to the bullet. Some cross over from the smallest impact, others take numerous hits from large caliber and survive.

I don't know what the draw weight was of Indians bows, but I'm sure in a hurry they didn't go full draw.
My arrowheads weigh 158gr, have 3 razor edges, and my bow has 90lbs at full draw.

Another thing: I thought everyone here would know the flint arrow heads found are ancient. One of the first thing shipped over were metal heads, by the barrel. By the time the flintlock replaced the matchlock, metal heads were being used.
One reason wagons were burned were for the metal, to trade or fabricate into metal knives, heads, etc.
I've yet to see an arrowhead anywhere where it was described as 18th century.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

hunters friend is a great site for understanding arrow mathmatics

 

[Jay Templin]

It took years to make a good bow shooter.
Almost anyone could be trained into being a passable musket shooter in few days.

That’s exactly why the English gave up the longbow. Some of the stuff written in support of the change at the time is pretty interesting. I’ll pull some…
Jay

 

[Clark Badgett]

The difference here is that you will not drop a human with a single arrow in most cases. A hit from musket is instant incapacitation practically every single time. So if your goal is not a speedshooting per se, muskets are superior in practical rate of fire too.

By the way - rate of fire of trained musketman with a flintlock is about 5 shots in a minute.

I don’t think many realize exactly how fast one can reload any smoothbore, even more so if paper cartridges are at hand.

 

[dave_person]

Actually most slaves taken by Muslims were sold to the Middle and Far East. The Portuguese and then the British and FrenchView attachment 330935 were the main slave traders to North America.

Hi,
Good table. The African trade for slaves, gold, ivory and timber was a major consumer of cheap British guns. It kept many tradesmen in the British gun industry employed during lulls between government contracts for muskets and other guns. The British government encouraged it because it kept key tradesmen such as lock and barrel makers in the gun business which was a matter of national security. Transported to the West Indies to work the sugar cane fields, they died in droves from over work and disease so new slaves were always in demand and with guns used as currency for them, the British gun makers made large profits. It was so profitable that even successful gun makers like Samuel Galton outfitted slave ships. The great irony here was Galton was a Quaker.

dave

 

[Eterry]

I don’t think many realize exactly how fast one can reload any smoothbore, even more so if paper cartridges are at hand.

I know an Archer can fire many shots a minute, but as I've said, not all hit a target, not all cause a fatal wound. The same can be said for flintlocks, but the bullet carries SOO much more Ft/Lbs of energy. According to Lymans Black Powder Handbook a 100gr load in a Brown Bess carried over 1200 ft/lbs. Very close to the energy of a 44 magnum.
Also, IIRC, an ARW soldier was trained to fire 3 to 4 rounds power minute. That's 2 shots per TV commercial.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I know an Archer can fire many shots a minute, but as I've said, not all hit a target, not all cause a fatal wound. The same can be said for flintlocks, but the bullet carries SOO much more Ft/Lbs of energy.
Also, IIRC, an ARW soldier was trained to fire 3 to 4 rounds power minute. That's 2 shots per TV commercial.

Now put that guy on line with 60-80 others doing the same with buck & ball rounds (4 projectiles each) and you can get an understanding of the shear wall of meaness flying at an enemy.