BP/PYRO RS question

[Kentuckywindage]

Since when do us muzzleloading shooter whine about whats healthy? Those lead balls we handle while we shoot are supposedly bad for out health, And ANY smoke you inhale is bad for you.

How do you KNOW that powder from the 1960s hasnt degraded? I'd be interested in what equipment is used to grade the quality of the powder.

Ive shot plenty of RS over the past 10 years and in my sidelocks, Super clean. With black powder i normally could only get 3 to 7 shots before the muzzle got so tight with fouling that it was impossible to load the next shot.

You can use pyrodex P in a flinter, its got me out of the hole quite a few times when i was unable to get real BP.

If i had to worry about price, i wouldnt be in the sport of muzzleloading.

RS is very reliable, cleaner than BP in my rifles and much easier to get locally. Its perfect in my sidelocks too. I like to use a Spitfire nipple that has a hollow base in it, Most times i just modify my original nipple and make it look like the spitfire. RS will serve you well :thumbsup:

As for pyro being bad for your health, more corrosive than any other powder, Bull manure! We all know what to do at the end of the day with our rifles.

Excuse me, not bull manure! Pyrodex emits percholates when fired. That means if you breathe the smoke after it is fired, you are breathing highly toxic percholrates. Cleaning is not an issue as far as percholates is concerned.

If your flinter powder is getting soaking wet, you probably need to use a cow's knee. One can not use pyrodex in a flinter, so that point is moot anyway.

Where does the information come from that storing any propellent/explosive in a plastic container eliminates the grenade effect?

I still have a couple of cans of BP dated from the 60's and it is still in original condition. I do not think Pyrodex can make that claim.

Purchased in quanities, BP is one heck of a lot cheaper than Pyrodex.

Pyrodex IS NOT cleaner than real BP. This old timer has used both and has spent more time cleaning Pyrodex crud.

I rest my case! :grin:

 

[fitter]

Sounds like you need a better patch lube. I can shoot all day without wiping.

 

[longcruise]

Excuse me, not bull manure! Pyrodex emits percholates when fired. That means if you breathe the smoke after it is fired, you are breathing highly toxic percholrates. Cleaning is not an issue as far as percholates is concerned.

I have read these same things about all the subs. However, the perchlorates are also said to be highly corrosive to the barrel and create a fine pitting that is hard to see but becomes a haven for rust to grow in.

I have ONLY ever used Pyro RS and like it....

I shoot Pyro ALOT and its NOT hard to clean!..I can EASILY shoot 10 to 15 rounds between wipes and thats in 6 differant guns.

Wattsy, with all due respect, if all you have ever shot is Pyro, then how would you know how "easy" it is to clean compared to bp, for example?

Moisture will ruin black powder if its exposed to it. Hence * My flinter didnt go off because it had soaked up moisture and was soaking wet!!* Been there, done that..

Can you clarify that?? Are you saying that powder in the pan of your unfired flinter soaked up moisture? Once fired, bp fouling can rapidly absorb moisture and get sludgy but unfired bp not in the presence of fired bp fouling should not unduly absorb moisture.

My understanding is PYRODEX is corrosive when it goes into the bore and corrosive the whole time it sits there and the residue left after shooting is corrosive.

actually yes i have seen pyrodex in a metal can, back when they first came out they were sold in cans that look like todays goex cans.

Aha, I have the perfect "test" for this sitting on a shelf. About 15 years ago i bought a container of Pyro RS Select to do velocity tests in comparison to Goex ff. The Pyro came in a plastic jug with a large mouth. My only can pouring spout on hand was sized to a Goex can. Sooo, I poured the pyro RS into an empty goex can and put a large labe on it to show what was in the can. That can is still sitting there where I put it those years back.

I will now step into the next room and take that can from the shelf and examine the inside of the can for corrosion............................. I'm back! There is absolutely no sign of corrosion on the inside of the can. The pyro looks and smells just like it did over 15 years ago.

One thing though. The top outside of the can has a curious corrosion on it whee there may have been a bit of pyro on top and outside the can. Not really rust, but an odd looking deterioration of the metal. PERCHLORATES??? :shocked2: :shocked2:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

by the way about the subs not being any good after it gets soaking wet. I did an experiment tonight with american pioneer, Soaked it in water then drained the water and molded the mush into a cake. I broke off a small section this morning and it went off perfectly. Im actually getting the stuff together to make a "pellet" and see how it shoots. If i had rubbing alcohol it would evaporate a lot faster.

I shoot pyrodex and the real stuff. Pyrodex does clean up faster IMO. But compared with american pioneer, RS/Goex are filthy to clean up. But hey, if cleaning up after the day bothered me, i'd shoot smokeless, but wheres the fun in that.

 

[larry wv]

As Gordy said it prob is a good idea to use all the black powder we can to help keep BP in existence. We all know how it works a little here and a tiny bit there and all of a sudden the sport is in Big trouble Larry Wv

 

[Little Wattsy]

Excuse me, not bull manure! Pyrodex emits percholates when fired. That means if you breathe the smoke after it is fired, you are breathing highly toxic percholrates. Cleaning is not an issue as far as percholates is concerned.

I have read these same things about all the subs. However, the perchlorates are also said to be highly corrosive to the barrel and create a fine pitting that is hard to see but becomes a haven for rust to grow in.

I have ONLY ever used Pyro RS and like it....

I shoot Pyro ALOT and its NOT hard to clean!..I can EASILY shoot 10 to 15 rounds between wipes and thats in 6 differant guns.

Wattsy, with all due respect, if all you have ever shot is Pyro, then how would you know how "easy" it is to clean compared to bp, for example?

Moisture will ruin black powder if its exposed to it. Hence * My flinter didnt go off because it had soaked up moisture and was soaking wet!!* Been there, done that..

Can you clarify that?? Are you saying that powder in the pan of your unfired flinter soaked up moisture? Once fired, bp fouling can rapidly absorb moisture and get sludgy but unfired bp not in the presence of fired bp fouling should not unduly absorb moisture.

My understanding is PYRODEX is corrosive when it goes into the bore and corrosive the whole time it sits there and the residue left after shooting is corrosive.

actually yes i have seen pyrodex in a metal can, back when they first came out they were sold in cans that look like todays goex cans.

Aha, I have the perfect "test" for this sitting on a shelf. About 15 years ago i bought a container of Pyro RS Select to do velocity tests in comparison to Goex ff. The Pyro came in a plastic jug with a large mouth. My only can pouring spout on hand was sized to a Goex can. Sooo, I poured the pyro RS into an empty goex can and put a large labe on it to show what was in the can. That can is still sitting there where I put it those years back.

I will now step into the next room and take that can from the shelf and examine the inside of the can for corrosion............................. I'm back! There is absolutely no sign of corrosion on the inside of the can. The pyro looks and smells just like it did over 15 years ago.

One thing though. The top outside of the can has a curious corrosion on it whee there may have been a bit of pyro on top and outside the can. Not really rust, but an odd looking deterioration of the metal. PERCHLORATES??? :shocked2: :shocked2:

Gotta admit I love the "tit for tat"...makes life fun...
"Wattsy, with all due respect, if all you have ever shot is Pyro, then how would you know how "easy" it is to clean compared to bp, for example?" I Never said it was easy COMPARED to bp....I simply said it was easy to clean. It takes as much or more time to pull the barrel, the nipple, and oil everything down as it does to plop the breech end in a bucket of warkm soappy water, stroke it 20-ish times and swab dry... I can be clean and oiled in 10 patches with Butches Bore Shine or Forumla 409....Like I said...Easy! :wink:

 

[Little Wattsy]

As Gordy said it prob is a good idea to use all the black powder we can to help keep BP in existence. We all know how it works a little here and a tiny bit there and all of a sudden the sport is in Big trouble Larry Wv

:hatsoff: for making some good sence.

 

[longcruise]

As Gordy said it prob is a good idea to use all the black powder we can to help keep BP in existence. We all know how it works a little here and a tiny bit there and all of a sudden the sport is in Big trouble Larry Wv

According to some stats I read, the sporting use of BP is a very small use of the total of all bp used. Maybe someone else has more info on that?

 

[Carbmonster]

Man, I am no expert, but I think the point here is to pour something down the barrel, and then ram something else down on top, cock, cap, and fire. I like BP, I like Shockey's Gold. It all goes down, and makes smoke. Yes there are variables, but we didn't get into ML for the tech, but for the lack thereof.

 

[larry wv]

Expect you are right Marmotslayer...Prob A lot used by the gov. But that doesn't mean they will sell it to us. Especialy if its a small percentage of all the powders being used by us. :hmm: Larry

 

[longcruise]

Point well taken. I was more addressing the liklihood that production would be stopped. Be a shame if it happened.

 

[Dphar]

Many moons ago when Pyrodex first came out, I purchased two pounds and thought I would give it a whirl. It foulded much more than real BP. I did not like that and went back to the real thing.

Some people like Pyrodex, but not me. Yes, it is more corrosive! It also emmits percholates when fired, which is highly toxic.

Something elso you may not be aware of is the Pyrodex you buy at Wally World has the haz mat charges already applied.

I believe you will be more satisfied with real BP. If you load PRB's, use FFFg at 10% less than you would with FFG.

If you really want to save, go to Powder, Inc or Maine Powder House and order 25#. The powder cost includes haz mat and shipping.

Actually it produces cyanide gas in small quantities as a by product according to a chemically astute friend.

I have never used it though I have won several pounds of it over the years at matches.

Dan

 

[hanshi]

The inventor of Pyrodex, Dan Polack (not sure the spelling), was after a bp substitute that smoked and burned more like bp than smokeless did. Most important was the goal of coming up with a product that was harder to ignite, safer to handle and less risky (routine) to ship. It was to be much less "touchy" than bp. It and other subs became the darling of the in$@#% crowd. Ironically, he was killed in an explosion at the plant early on.

I have used Pyro only a few times so don't have much in the way of experience with it. I do know that I don't like it, however. But if I COULDN'T get black, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

 

[Herb]

Here is a custom .50 Lancaster I built 8 years ago. In this test of the adjustable tang sight, I used Goex 3F and Pyrodex RS, rested at 50 yards. The nipple is a HotShot. CCI standard caps, .490 Hornady balls. Patching is .018 US Army fatigue shirt (100 % cotton), lube is Murphy Oil Soap and alcohol. Top left target is 100 grains of Goex 3F, velocity 1924 fps, 35 spread, group is 1.7". Next (middle) target I shot last. Top right is 50 grains of Goex 3F, 1441 fps, 94 spread, five shot-group 1.3". Bottom right shot third, with 100 grains of Pyrodex RS. First shot off-target to foul the bore with the Pyrodex, no cleaning or wiping during this test. Three shots 1902 fps, 57 spread, group 0.4". So pretty I didn't shoot more!. Then I shot the top middle target with an adjusted sight. Six shots of 100 grains Pyrodex RS, same as bottom right target, group 3.4", four in 1.1". Velocity 1893 fps, 88 spread. Total of 10 shots with Pyrodex RS gave 1900 fps average, 110 fps spread. I clean the Pyrodex just like black powder, and only use it in testing. This test was for a velocity comparison.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

nice shooting and pretty rifle! Have you ever tested pyrodex P 3f? I figured 3f goex would have been quite hotter than the 2f RS.

 

[Sharp Shooter]

I used Pyrodex Select for a little bit then I got some real black powder. Since then I have shot nothing but real black. I did not see a problem with Pyrodex and it worked fine for me but I did not shoot much of it.

I think if you clean your barrel at the end of the day you will be fine shooting Pyrodex. Real black is my first choice but if I had to I would not have a problem shooting Pyrodex. I still have that can of Select incase I ever need it.

I have left my muzzleloader un-cleaned for a day or two after shooting real BP and had no problems cleaning it. I would never leave a gun dirty with Pyrodex for even a day though. I just dont trust it.

If you can get black powder, it is worth it. If not its not the end of the world and Pyrodex will do just fine. Just make sure you do a good job cleaning :grin:

 

[Herb]

Yes, I have shot Pyrodex P in .40 and .45 caliber rifles, maybe .50 also. Have to look at my chronograph book. And I have had problems with it. Some I got at a yard sale, a partly used can, and it gave me velocity spreads of a couple hundred feet per second. Must have been old or faulty powder, but I have not used much of it. I have a can of new P and don't have any really good results with it, but that just means I haven't tried enough to make it work. Some people have very good results with it.

 

[Herb]

I have nearly 50 pounds of Goex and Swiss black powder on hand and have used at least 25 pounds more of it in the last three years. I have used two or three pounds of Pyrodex P, RS and Triple 7 2F and 3F in that time. These powders can work very well, and I like to furnish that information to people who buy heirloom quality rifles from me. We have black powder now, but it may be more difficult to get in 10 or 20 years. And how long will rifles like these last? Here is another comparison test with a .54, Green River barrel. Hot Shot nipple, standard CCI caps.

For those who don't like Pyrodex, you can say that this group is twice as big as with the Goex and that the velocity spread is twice as much. That is true with these targets with this particular rifle and load on this date. But I expect that with a repeat test, or different powder charges, the Pyrodex RS would shoot as well as the Goex.

 

[gmww]

Thank you for the wonderful photos and information. I like black powder but it has become difficult to purchase around my parts unless you order a large quantity over the internet. I've had to resort to Pyrodex RS and it takes time but with some range effort I get my guns accurate enough for hunting.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You keep saying how difficult it is to buy black powder, but I know that there are companies that will give you some discount on an order of at least 4 or 5 lbs. I don't consider this much of an order if you shoot your gun regularly over the year, attending club shoots each month, for instance. If it is a lot to you, then find another MLer to share the order with you. Find a bunch of shooters, and then save everyone more money by ordering a case( 25 lbs.- yeah, that IS a lot of powder for ONE shooter for most of us.

Is there something wrong in Washington for MLers to work together to obtain the same supplies that each of you need? Are there NO gun clubs in that state you can join to find fellow MLers????? Or are you simply the LONE WOLF shooter, who worries about helicopters overhead, and shoots only at a private range at an undisclosed location, so that no one even knows( or cares) that you shoot guns??

MY gun club made it one of the best reasons to JOIN the club being the fact that we ordered powder at least once a year, and could get a substantial discount on the price, and you could order as much powder at those discounted prices as you wanted! That was back when we could buy DuPont powder for less than $3.00 per lb. while retailers were getting upwards of $5.00 for a lb. of powder, when you could find it! :thumbsup: