:hmm:
Seems to me there were some relatively large boilers, and turrets, on the Monitor and the dozens of ironclads that followed her; and in the large steamships and paddlewheelers.
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Brass and Iron mounts on early guns
- Thread starter rich pierce
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:hmm:
Seems to me there were some relatively large boilers, and turrets, on the Monitor and the dozens of ironclads that followed her; and in the large steamships and paddlewheelers.
Stophel
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This is the perennially popular question. I think the drive to find support for the idea of "Pre-rev" rifles with iron mounts stems from the modern desire for a totally brown gun. I've seen a lot of rationalizations for people building or buying something like a 1770 Lancaster gun with iron mounts. "Well, they had iron, didn't they?" "well, out of the hundreds or thousands of known guns, there's one that has iron mounts, so..."
Did the pre Revolutionary (or even pre 1800, for that matter) rifle with iron mounts exist? Probably, but they were rare as hen's teeth. Now, there is one notable exception, and that is the Virginia "black" rifles that Mr. Gusler writes about (I am famous for my impetuous disagreements with Mr. Gusler, but I see no reason to question him here). However, he has not shown an existing black rifle that predates the 1790's to my knowledge. The exact forms of the pre-rev. VA iron mounted rifle (or ANY VA pre-rev rifle...) is pretty well speculation.
"Barn" guns or "farmer's" guns that are super plain of ANY era are something else entirely, and the type of hardware that is on them often is not really comparable to the "normal" brass variety. I have seen some really plain 18th century rifles (no buttplate, sideplate, etc)...maybe 2 that I can think of. Normal brass triggerguards. Not much else. I have also seen some early 19th century Berks county "barn guns" with plain strap triggerguards...iron and brass. These simply don't compare with a "fully mounted" gun.
If you really want an iron mounted 1770 Lancaster-type rifle, well, I can't stop you, but please don't call it "authentic"...
Did the pre Revolutionary (or even pre 1800, for that matter) rifle with iron mounts exist? Probably, but they were rare as hen's teeth. Now, there is one notable exception, and that is the Virginia "black" rifles that Mr. Gusler writes about (I am famous for my impetuous disagreements with Mr. Gusler, but I see no reason to question him here). However, he has not shown an existing black rifle that predates the 1790's to my knowledge. The exact forms of the pre-rev. VA iron mounted rifle (or ANY VA pre-rev rifle...) is pretty well speculation.
"Barn" guns or "farmer's" guns that are super plain of ANY era are something else entirely, and the type of hardware that is on them often is not really comparable to the "normal" brass variety. I have seen some really plain 18th century rifles (no buttplate, sideplate, etc)...maybe 2 that I can think of. Normal brass triggerguards. Not much else. I have also seen some early 19th century Berks county "barn guns" with plain strap triggerguards...iron and brass. These simply don't compare with a "fully mounted" gun.
If you really want an iron mounted 1770 Lancaster-type rifle, well, I can't stop you, but please don't call it "authentic"...
Fatdutchman hits on something when he says the modern desire for a totally brown gun. In my case, and I think in alot of others, it is belief in what was period correct, and not desire. Until this was posted, I was under the belief that brass-mounted rifles would fall into a later period. I knew of the French fusils and trsde guns (particularly those we now call Types C and D) which were ornate and brass mounted, as well as the Brown Bess. However, concerning brass mounted American longrifles, what popped into my mind was the "Golden Age" with the ornate brass and silver patchboxes, mounts, and inlays. My belief was those were late revolutionary or post-revolutionary, and therefore the earlier F&I period firearms should be iron mounted. What it came down to was that I associated brass mounted rifles with fancy, more expensive tastes, and I believed the earlier frontiersmen would have had plainer tastes and less money to spend--associating brass with fancy, I thought the brass mounted rifles would be more expensive than iron mounted rifles. Apparently, this was not the case. I think that the desire for a totally brown gun does not necessarily stem from preferring the looks of that type, but from what many of us believed was correct. After all, both the rich and the Indians preferred bright, shiny pretty things like brass; the common working man, one would think, would be stuck with the dull iron thing. I have the Time-Life series on the old west. To satisfy my curiosity, I checked the volume entitled "The Frontiersmen." If you have this book, or if you have access at your local library, check it out. On pages 26-27 there is a full color photo of an original longrifle. The barrel and lock are not browned. The nosecap, trigger guard, thimbles, and buttplate or of brass. The caption mentions the brass mountings and state it dates to 1761. It certainly fits the descriptions given here, and not what I imagined it to be. No, I will not remove the browning from the barrel and lock of my Early Virginia I ordered from Narragansett, nor will I replace the iron mounts with brass--no need for me to mess up something I paid lots of money for. But now I know better. And yes, I still like that gun and its looks.
I believe that is the Shriet gun they show in that book, I have it arouind here somewhere,if I recall the text and pics suggest it is a .45 cal but in fact is is a much larger bore. Buying first and researching later is very common and I think that the builders/suppliers less than "full disclosure" position in their advertisments in regards to historical authenticity is much to blame for this.
Russ T Frizzen
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I've got a 1730-1740 period fowler that has a browned barrel. I'm giving serious thought to removing the brown finish and polishing the barrel. At least it has brass furniture. I've had friends tell me not to remove the browning because the shiny metal will scare off the deer and turkeys. My '42 Springfield has all its steel highly polished, and it has never scared anything away, to my knowledge. 'Course, I don't make a habit of waving it around much.
Chris, what is your take on bluing? I understand that the use of bluing dates to an earlier time than browning. If so, what technique would be used--would it result in something similar to the lovely blue of the Colts and Winchesters of the Victorian era or would it be different?
Chris, what is your take on bluing? I understand that the use of bluing dates to an earlier time than browning. If so, what technique would be used--would it result in something similar to the lovely blue of the Colts and Winchesters of the Victorian era or would it be different?
I would not be concerned about a non-browned barrel scaring game, you could go with a bit of age(patina) effect and not have a super brite barrel as another choice, if you take off the brown with naval jelly you may like it just as it is.
Russ T Frizzen
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tg--I think that the game scaring bit is like a lot of things that make sense 'til you pick them apart. It sounds good, but I don't think it's worth worrying about. I may polish it to the point where I can see my face in it. If I don't like, I can always re-brown it.
C_L--Charcoal bluing is a good possibility, but I'm wondering about fire-bluing. Today we have niter-bluing, as well. Both methods yield results that look like the bright blue screws in a fine watch. But the question is, when did these methods first appear?
C_L--Charcoal bluing is a good possibility, but I'm wondering about fire-bluing. Today we have niter-bluing, as well. Both methods yield results that look like the bright blue screws in a fine watch. But the question is, when did these methods first appear?
Stophel
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I have yet to charcoal blue a barrel. It is not a technically difficult proposition however. Essentially dig a pit, build a fire, filling the pit with hot coals, bury the barrel in the coals, cover it up, dig it out later. Of course, it is more complicated than that, but you get the picture. This produces a dark gray-blue "scale" on the surface of the metal and is NOT AT ALL like the temper blue that is called "charcoal blue" on some of the Colt reproductions. This is simply a heat temper color attained by heating until the desired color is reached. It used to be done in ovens or kilns to control the heat. It makes a nice beautiful bright shiny blue, but it is VERY fragile and basically will rub off with your fingers. It is really not worth the trouble. A good many German guns were done this way, though due to the fragile nature of the finish, you couldn't really tell without taking the barrel out of the stock, since many of these guns would simply look like they were finished bright! I have a ca 1710 German smoothbore gun that is brown all over, but there is the tiniest trace of bright shiny blue in one spot on the bottom of the barrel under the nosecap. I doubt that it was ever really done in America.
I would be willing to bet that Charcoal blueing was more common in VA than anywhere else in America. All the PA rifles that I have gotten to see that are still in good enough shape to tell were finished bright. "still in good enough shape to tell"...that's the trick. Most guns I see are completely brown and rusty, so it's hard to say sometimes.
Finishing a gun bright does not mean it will stay that way. It will turn a dull gray/brown soon enough without being "rusty".
I would be willing to bet that Charcoal blueing was more common in VA than anywhere else in America. All the PA rifles that I have gotten to see that are still in good enough shape to tell were finished bright. "still in good enough shape to tell"...that's the trick. Most guns I see are completely brown and rusty, so it's hard to say sometimes.
Finishing a gun bright does not mean it will stay that way. It will turn a dull gray/brown soon enough without being "rusty".
Brass, being largely made of copper got me thinking about Paul Revere. Although known for his Silverwork, in later years, he owned a Copper Foundry and Rolling mill.
In the book "Paul Revere & the WORLD HE LIVED IN" HOUGHTON MIFFLIN CO BOSTON copyright 1942, on page 410, the author says:
"The Reveres always had considerable difficulty in getting the materials out of which to work. Paul Revere urges the Government to bring copper home from Smyrna on the warships, as ballast. There was no American mine that could supply them. From Sweden and Turkey they got their copper in plate, from South America in pigs: From Russia in bars."
The time period being discussed was around 1800.
Elsewhere where the Brass bells Revere cast were being discussed, the book fails to mention where they got the material except to say that much of it came from old cracked bells.
There is also mention of the great secrecy of the proper amounts of copper and the other materials used to make bell brass and that this knowledge was guarded by the Guilds in England and Europe.
In the book "Paul Revere & the WORLD HE LIVED IN" HOUGHTON MIFFLIN CO BOSTON copyright 1942, on page 410, the author says:
"The Reveres always had considerable difficulty in getting the materials out of which to work. Paul Revere urges the Government to bring copper home from Smyrna on the warships, as ballast. There was no American mine that could supply them. From Sweden and Turkey they got their copper in plate, from South America in pigs: From Russia in bars."
The time period being discussed was around 1800.
Elsewhere where the Brass bells Revere cast were being discussed, the book fails to mention where they got the material except to say that much of it came from old cracked bells.
There is also mention of the great secrecy of the proper amounts of copper and the other materials used to make bell brass and that this knowledge was guarded by the Guilds in England and Europe.
According to info from a gentleman in Europe, many guns were finished black. They took raw wool and heated the barrel. When the wool was rubbed and scorched against the metal, the lanolin penetrated the metal creating a dull black color and also providing some rust resistance. Apparently this has been done there on metal parts for a long time. He said the children collected the wool they found from the sheep to sell to the smiths. I suspect that for some guns, this was the original finish. He said the same can be done with any pure wool sample, but the raw unprocessed wool has the higher lanolin content. This method is still used today according to the source.
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key word relitive stumpy the engines they were showing befor 1890 were only hald the size of those after
I have "almost" charcoal blued a couple of barrels...even went as far as digging the pit, but could not muster the "standard ML projectiles" to throw a 200+ dollar barrel into a pit of hot coals, so I have stayed with white barrels with some degree of patina.
Russ T Frizzen
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I must admit that I find sticking a fine rifle barrel into a pit of hot coals a touch worrisome. But it was/is done with success by many. Since the resulting finish is so perishable, I wonder why they started doing it? tg? Chris?
By the way, tg, nice turn of phrase there!
By the way, tg, nice turn of phrase there!
Stophel
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Looking at my last post, I can see it was a bit confusing. Charcoal blueing is rather durable, and produces a coating of blue-gray scale on the surface of the metal. Temper blueing, which is created by simply heating the metal, produces a bright shiny blue, and can be rubbed off with the fingers. The two should not be confused, and I didn't help with the situation.
TEMPER blueing used to be done in kilns, not Charcoal blueing.
What really amazes me is seeing Spanish and French gun barrels that are charcoal blued and also have gold and silver Damascening....I have NO idea how they did that. Maybe the silver was inlet first, and the coals get not quite hot enough to melt the silver....
TEMPER blueing used to be done in kilns, not Charcoal blueing.
What really amazes me is seeing Spanish and French gun barrels that are charcoal blued and also have gold and silver Damascening....I have NO idea how they did that. Maybe the silver was inlet first, and the coals get not quite hot enough to melt the silver....
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What about rust blueing?
Cody
Cody
Word is that the browning process didn't become popular until the late 1790's to early 1800's. I decided I didn't want bluing on my barrel, but also didn't want browning it to look like a painted on finish from a post revolutionary war era.
So, I removed the bluing from my rifle, and with a lot of help from a gunbuilder friend of mine, did the old "boil it in bleach and water" trick. You have to plug both the muzzle and the touch hole or you'll end up with a pry bar instead of a useable barrel. It took about 10 seconds to turn the solution a rusty red, and all of about 15 minutes to get the tiny little rust balls all over the barrel. Was pretty scary. Looked like I had ruined the barrel - good thing I had been told to expect this. Then we mounted a wire wheel on a bench grinder and brushed the rust off of it until I thought it looked good. It wasn't real brown, but brown enough. Then I oiled the barrel and that was all she wrote.
This process put tiny little pits in the barrel (bigger pits if you boil it twice as long) and gave it a brown patina that didn't look like it was painted on. The idea was to make it look like a gun barrel that was originally delivered in the white, and then used hard for a decade or two (presuming you weren't a Brit who was constantly polishing the barrel of his "firelock").
For a little more authenticity, I used one of those green pads to lighten it up more around the muzzle where I hold it when reloading, and also around the barrel where I hold it when "trailing" the gun. So, the barrel looks pretty well aged now, and I like it a lot.
So, I removed the bluing from my rifle, and with a lot of help from a gunbuilder friend of mine, did the old "boil it in bleach and water" trick. You have to plug both the muzzle and the touch hole or you'll end up with a pry bar instead of a useable barrel. It took about 10 seconds to turn the solution a rusty red, and all of about 15 minutes to get the tiny little rust balls all over the barrel. Was pretty scary. Looked like I had ruined the barrel - good thing I had been told to expect this. Then we mounted a wire wheel on a bench grinder and brushed the rust off of it until I thought it looked good. It wasn't real brown, but brown enough. Then I oiled the barrel and that was all she wrote.
This process put tiny little pits in the barrel (bigger pits if you boil it twice as long) and gave it a brown patina that didn't look like it was painted on. The idea was to make it look like a gun barrel that was originally delivered in the white, and then used hard for a decade or two (presuming you weren't a Brit who was constantly polishing the barrel of his "firelock").
For a little more authenticity, I used one of those green pads to lighten it up more around the muzzle where I hold it when reloading, and also around the barrel where I hold it when "trailing" the gun. So, the barrel looks pretty well aged now, and I like it a lot.
Ok, if pre-revolutionary barrels were left in-the-white, with no browning, were they polished in any way? If not, it would seem as if a hunter with dirty hands covered with sweat and powder fouling would soon have rust spots covering wherever he touched unfinished iron.
Certainly not all were delivered in the white. Bluing was also available for an extra charge. The Brits polished their barrels so that they shined. It was an intimidation factor. They wanted you to see them coming.
Although the barrels were delivered in the white, they certainly used to clean and oil the guns (including the barrel) to help prevent rust (OK, used bear grease). So, it was a slow rust browning type of process. It would be similar to oiling a non-stainless steel tool and using it for many years. You clean it and oil it and it still slowly oxidizes and develops a patina.
Since they had to clean the guns whenever they fired them, I doubt that there would be any rust fingerprints per se.
:imo:
Concerning the John Shrite rifle dated 1761, when it came to light it supposedly had a trigger guard made of horn (very Germanic) but the new owner felt it didn't look right and replaced it with the guard that is currently on it.
I'm reading Burt Loescher's "History of Rogers' Rangers" vol. 1 again. I noticed that he states that the rangers muskets were "browned" (on Rogers' orders) to prevent the glint from polished arms giving them away in the woods. This was in 1758, he (Loescher) uses Rogers' Journals as the reference. I haven't had time to dig out my copy of Rogers' Journals to verify this as yet. If this pans out this will be the earliest reference to browned guns in America that I'm aware of.
Regards, Dave
I'm reading Burt Loescher's "History of Rogers' Rangers" vol. 1 again. I noticed that he states that the rangers muskets were "browned" (on Rogers' orders) to prevent the glint from polished arms giving them away in the woods. This was in 1758, he (Loescher) uses Rogers' Journals as the reference. I haven't had time to dig out my copy of Rogers' Journals to verify this as yet. If this pans out this will be the earliest reference to browned guns in America that I'm aware of.
Regards, Dave
