brass frame

[tom hargrove]

i recently traded for a pietta 1851 navy with a brass frame i have always heard that shooting heavy loads will cause them to get loose just wondering what constitutes a heavy load i am now shooting 17gr 3f with ox-yoke wad and 454r/b and it is a very weak load it has no penetration or punch what kind of loads do you fellows that have brass frames shoot in them ,

 

[Titus]

Two bellys, I have a Pietta .44 1858 Reminton New Army in brass frame and I shoot a bit of a compressed 35gr FFFg charge out of it. I have had no problems whatsoever with it and it goes on pretty well. Personally I think the majority of guys underestimate the sturdyness of brass frames. :v :grin:

 

[torn moc]

I agree with TITUS...I have a brass framed Griswold and have been shooting 25-30 grains of FFF in it since the 70's and have had no bad effects on the gun. Maybe the newer brass frames are weaker? but the old ones hold up just fine.
I shoot mine every weekend...
:thumbsup:

 

[Don]

I shoot 25grains out of my .44's and so far no problems

Don

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

Although I don't personally own a brass frame revolver, there are plenty being used at our local BP League competition. Most folks use 20-30 grains of 3F Goex and one or two ox-yoke wonder-wads to fill-up the void in the cylinder's chambers.

Filling-up the void helps to compact the lighter charge and results in better accuracy because the ball doesn't "jump" out of the cylinder.

Some folks use cereal or something else instead of two wonder-wads...my Bad-Guys only eat lead :rotf: :shocked2: .

All the best, Dave

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

I usually shoot 40 grains, sometimes 30 grains, my brass frame has always been fine.

 

[Zonie]

I have several brass framed C&B pistols and shoot light loads in them. I do this not just because someone somewhere once said that brass is not the strongest stuff around, but because of some numbers.

Being an Engineering Nurd, I like to look at specifications. Now, I'll be the first to say, I don't have any idea about which alloy these reproductions are cast out of, but as they are made by folks who are in the business of making money, I figure they aren't going to use some high priced alloy to cast the frames from.

Looking at the strengths of two casting brasses, I see where one has a Tensile Strength of 34,000 PSI and another grade of material is 37,000 PSI.
A low carbon castable steel has a Tensile Strength of 63,000 PSI while another is 75,000 PSI.
Now, Tensile Strength is where the material breaks, but in the case of these pistol frames, Yield Strength is more of an issue.

Yield Strength is where the material has been put under load, and it has failed to return to its original dimensions (or shape).

For the castable steels mentioned above, the Yield Strengths are 35,000 PSI and 42,000 PSI respectively.
The two brasses mentioned above have a Yield Strength of 13,000 PSI and 17,000 PSI.
Any way I look at it, the brass is less than 1/2 as strong as cast steel.

Does this make the pistols unsafe? I would say no, they are quite safe.
Does it mean I shouldn't load them up to the same powder loads I would use in a steel framed gun. In my opinion, that's exactly what it means.

The normal powder load for a .44 C&B pistol is about 28-30 grains of FFFg. I would think that Dixie Gunworks recommendation of 22 grains of FFFg for the brass framed .44 that they sell would give you the bang your looking for without overstressing the frame.

zonie

 

[cheatherly]

I have a 51' navy brass frame also.I,ve fired it maybe 1,400( one box a year for 14 years, best gues anyway) times with a 25 grain charge of 4f pyrodex.The manual recomended 15 gr max.It is as tight as it was the day I got it. Brass is diferent that steel, but artillary pieces were made of solid brass, so I think I'm safe. By the way , this is one very accurate revolver. I've read in the past about modifying the hammer notch for easier aiming. Anyone done that?

 

[cheatherly]

Oh, almost forgot. I learned first hand with this revovler why you should properly seal the cylinder before firing. The gun was not damaged, but three cylinders did fire at once.

 

[Titus]

:shocked2: :shocked2: :shocked2: oopsy.....

 

[mykeal]

I have a 51' navy brass frame...fired it...1,400...times with a 25 grain charge of 4f pyrodex.The manual recomended 15 gr max....Brass is diferent that steel, but artillary pieces were made of solid brass, so I think I'm safe....

First of all, suggesting the use of brass in cannons means it's safe to greatly overload a brass frame revolver is simply utter nonsense. By that logic I should be able to use a half ton pickup to pull a 20 ton trailer, since both it and a Kenworth diesel tractor have an engine.

Your claim that the gun is as "tight" as it was 14 years ago is suspect also. You need to measure the clearances and provide that data to have any credibilty, because it just doesn't make physical sense. If you've really shot that gun like you claim it must have stretched significantly, although just feeling it will not show how much. Also, how do you remember how it felt 14 years ago.

I think you are one very lucky dude.

 

[kaac1221]

Pay attention to what Zonie said. Being an old engineering type nerd myself I dug out my old Machinery's Handbook (antique edition) and verified Zonie's figures (just as an exercise).

I only have one brass frame gun and it was a gift. It's a Remington, so there's a little more "meat" there in the frame because of the top strap but I still don't shoot heavy loads in it.

Don't know what the safety factor is for brass frame guns but since brass will stretch I wouldn't expect a catatrophic failure---(seen a few of these in the rocket design business----big 'ol orange ball of fire----).

The point is: BETTER SAFE THAN SORRY!! If you want to shoot heavier loads GET A STEEL FRAME GUN!! Can't emphasize that enough!

Dryball

 

[cheatherly]

Greatly over load? I don't think so, hot maybe but not over loaded.The barrel and cylinder contain the majority of the pressures generated.The problem people associate with these guns is the pounding the frame recieves from the rearward thrust of the cylinder. The symptoms are eccesive barrel cylinder gap and loose base pin.I contest these guns are stronger than commenly thought.I did a quick look through my books and manuals, and I see recomended loads between 15 and 30 grains. I do think 30 grains is too much, and 25 seems to be the most accurate.My base pin has no measureable 'wobble'.(yes I miked it) I will measure the the barrel,cylider gap.If it is out of specs, I'll retire it.The cannon statement, was meant to be funny.B.T.W. I'm saving up for a walker, or a dragoon, haven't decided yet.That can be my hot loaded revovler.I do appreciate the input you guys provide,and how you err on the side of safety.

 

[tom hargrove]

i have two steel frame 58 army`s .never said i wanted to shoot heavy loads in the brass frame just that 17gr was weak and what did others shoot. :winking:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

If I recall correctly, artillery pieces were actually cast from bronze--a different alloy than brass. The frames of some C&B revolvers and Henry rifles were cast from gun metal--an alloy similar to bell metal--another type of bronze. In fact, Southern brass framed revolvers were cast from bell metal because of a shortage of steel. And bronzes tend to be tougher than brasses.
I have a couple of brass framed revolvers and they are still tight after many years, but they've never been fired with heavy loads. I have no doubt that heavy charges would have long ago turned these pistols into junk. In fact, I know of several that other folks have ruined in this way.

 

[mykeal]

Chapter - my apologies. I misread your post as 45 gr, not the 25 gr you actually stated. I have no idea why that happened - my eyes are not THAT bad. 25 gr is not an overload and should not damage a brass framed gun. You are quite correct in your original post and I am quite embarrassed. :redface:

 

[kaac1221]

Humblest apologies for misreading your post. My concern for safety goes back to an incident that i witnessed a long time ago where the top three flats of a 45cal BP rifle blew off of the barrel. The breechplug was missimg, the hammer was missing...........and so were three fingertips on the shooters left hand. Not a pleasant experience. Ever since then I've been very sensitive about safety. No, it wasn't my gun or my fingertips!

 

[tom hargrove]

and that sir is a commendable attitude :bow:

 

[dboone]

I have a ASM 1858 remmy and it's engraved over almost every inche of the gun it's beautiful. I shoot 30 gr. of goex 3f out it for 12 years and its still tight. I shoot 30 gr. of 3f T7 only one cyclinder full and it seemed ok after, but I don't want to mess the gun up so one time only deal. I have a ASM 1851 sheriffs model and I use 20 gr. of 3f t7 all the time and it's still run great with very good accuracy.

 

[John Taylor]

I have the remains of navy brass frame that is very loose. The cylinder moves forward about .050" when the hammer is pulled back and when at full cock the cylinder can be moved back the same distance. I had one about 30 years ago that was the same way and soldered a steel shim to the face of the action after filing it flat. I will try to get a close up picture to post of the one I have now.