Brass Tacks on Knife Sheaths?

[DiMarco_Mercantile]

Hello,
I’ve seen a few historic examples of Native American knife sheaths with brass tacks. I never saw the backsides, but how are the tacks held in place? Are their posts bend on the other side, cut short, or some other method? Thanks.

 

[LongWalker]

Early tacks (roughly pre-1860ish) were cast of brass in one piece. The tacks were placed through the leather and the shanks cut and pounded flat. (Yeah--they occasionally fell out.) Two piece tacks came in around 1860 or so (based on collection date of extant artifacts). The steel shanks were usually cut flush and pounded flat. Modern convention is to anneal the shanks before placing them, then bending the shanks and pounding them flat.

The biggest problem with modern tacks is that all of them seem to be brass-plated steel. The plating wears off (or corrodes off due to the leather) and the leather gets rust stained.

 

[tenngun]

Early tacks (roughly pre-1860ish) were cast of brass in one piece. The tacks were placed through the leather and the shanks cut and pounded flat. (Yeah--they occasionally fell out.) Two piece tacks came in around 1860 or so (based on collection date of extant artifacts). The steel shanks were usually cut flush and pounded flat. Modern convention is to anneal the shanks before placing them, then bending the shanks and pounding them flat.
Also modren tacks have a weak joint to the brass head, even if the head is solid brass. You go to bent them over and they break off.
The biggest problem with modern tacks is that all of them seem to be brass-plated steel. The plating wears off (or corrodes off due to the leather) and the leather gets rust stained.

 

[DiMarco_Mercantile]

Early tacks (roughly pre-1860ish) were cast of brass in one piece. The tacks were placed through the leather and the shanks cut and pounded flat. (Yeah--they occasionally fell out.) Two piece tacks came in around 1860 or so (based on collection date of extant artifacts). The steel shanks were usually cut flush and pounded flat. Modern convention is to anneal the shanks before placing them, then bending the shanks and pounding them flat.

The biggest problem with modern tacks is that all of them seem to be brass-plated steel. The plating wears off (or corrodes off due to the leather) and the leather gets rust stained.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

 

[LRB]

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Brass tacks from Walmart and Dollar stores are brass plated, but most vendors of rendezvous and period items sell solid brass heads with steel shanks, Crazy Crow being a good source for them. Just a few years back, maybe 20 or so the solid early tacks were still available from England, although expensive, but it seems they are no longer offered anywhere. The early solid brass tacks were also not quite as high domed as what is offered now. The early tack shanks were not really "pounded flat", the shanks were forced through a tight starter hole formed by a small diameter awl point and then snipped to length and carefully hammer peened to have small retainer heads, and yes many original items are missing tacks. Bear in mind, tack decorating was pretty much a 19th c., western NDN/mt. man thing, nothing wrong with that, but would be a tad bit out of place for long hunter, colonial, or early American portrayals.

 

[Eutycus]

Yeah, it is kind of disappointing when a magnet sticks to "brass tacks".

 

[Eutycus]

I did the peening thing but first I broke the heads off from the shanks that were intended for the back side.A small hole was drilled into center of the "shankless" tack. The ones without the shanks were then used as washers. The shanks from the front tacks went through the leather and through the drilled holes. Cut to the length you like and peen. It's been several years since I did this but I think I may have put a small drop of super glue (or was it JB Weld?)

under each head. Enclosed is a picture of the backside.

 

[waksupi]

Brass tacks from Walmart and Dollar stores are brass plated, but most vendors of rendezvous and period items sell solid brass heads with steel shanks, Crazy Crow being a good source for them. Just a few years back, maybe 20 or so the solid early tacks were still available from England, although expensive, but it seems they are no longer offered anywhere. The early solid brass tacks were also not quite as high domed as what is offered now. The early tack shanks were not really "pounded flat", the shanks were forced through a tight starter hole formed by a small diameter awl point and then snipped to length and carefully hammer peened to have small retainer heads, and yes many original items are missing tacks. Bear in mind, tack decorating was pretty much a 19th c., western NDN/mt. man thing, nothing wrong with that, but would be a tad bit out of place for long hunter, colonial, or early American portrayals.

Crazy Crow tacks are plated.

 

[BillinOregon]

DiMarco, if you are interested in Native American knife sheaths, this book is well worth owning:
https://prairieedge.com/plains-indian-knife-sheaths-materials-design-construction/

 

[Eutycus]

I'm of the opinion that the shanks well stay put better if washers are used. The small little silver washers have too big of a hole. Besides your homemade brass washers are far more attractive.

 

[LRB]

Crazy Crow tacks are plated.

NO, they are not. The heads are solid brass. The shanks are steel. I have used hundreds of CC's brass tacks over the years. If a magnet pulls to them, it is pulling to the steel shanks.

 

[andy52]

Hello,
I’ve seen a few historic examples of Native American knife sheaths with brass tacks. I never saw the backsides, but how are the tacks held in place? Are their posts bend on the other side, cut short, or some other method? Thanks.

I'm not sure what your looking for is called a tack, it's more of a modified rivet.
Have a look at these and if you need some I have hundreds of them. They are brass, not steel and you can have some at no cost all I'll need is your mailing address.

 

[waksupi]

NO, they are not. The heads are solid brass. The shanks are steel. I have used hundreds of CC's brass tacks over the years. If a magnet pulls to them, it is pulling to the steel shanks.

I've also used them for years. I just got one out of my stash, ran them across my diamond sharpener, brass plated steel.

 

[Red Owl]

The Originals had low dome, high dome, etc. and the shanks were brass and square. The square shanks had a little more material so you could peen them over but whenever I tried it all I did was bend the shank at a slant rather than mushroom the shank end. THEN I tried them in rawhide. The rawhide is stiff enough to support the shank and you can peen the ends.
Years ago there was an online store, The Trunk Shoppe, that sold all brass, square shanks tacks but I think they are no longer in business. Maybe someone knows.
BUT BE CAREFUL! The Mountain Men are painted by Alfred Jacob Miller with just a single row of tacks, maybe 8 to 10. These appear as "light dots" but what are they? In my research, never really found out. YES, they could be brass tacks. Brass tacks were a fur trade item so they were available. The knives and sheaths were fur trade items. I'm not certain if the sheaths were made by a harness maker or by the mountain man himself. Sheaths don't appear on any fur trade supply lists, so maybe they were home made but then it would seem odd that all mountain men made the same kind of sheath. If sheaths were made by harness makers it is very possible that the "light dots" in Miller's work are harness rivets. I also made some lead rivets. I "ran ball" but took a twig and poked it 5/8" into the ground in 8 places and filled the holes with lead, worked great.
WE THEN have an entirely different era in the 1870's (more or less) in which native sheaths had multiple rows of tacks. In many surviving NDN sheaths some tacks are missing and peening was used to attach them. That doesn't mean mountain men peen attached tacks. Wood working back then used a clinch in doors, etc. You bent a nail tip 90 degrees, then bend the shank near the surface so that the bent tip was driven into the wood. Tacks could have been installed that way by mountain men. From what I have researched- there really isn't much that survived to determine what was done.

 

[LRB]

I've also used them for years. I just got one out of my stash, ran them across my diamond sharpener, brass plated steel.

Sorry, I don't believe it. If what you say is true, I do not believe Crazy Crow was your source.

 

[waksupi]

Sorry, I don't believe it. If what you say is true, I do not believe Crazy Crow was your source.

I've been doing business with them as a dealer for nearly 50 years. Take a file to one of your tacks.
They do have solid brass NAILS, but not tacks.

Notice in the description. Finishes, as in plated. No where is solid brass mentioned or implied.
Round Head High Dome Silver & Brass Tacks: half-round heads for axes, knife sheaths, cutting boards, etc. Available in brass, antique and antique silver finishes.

 

[user 48702]

Sorry, I don't believe it. If what you say is true, I do not believe Crazy Crow was your source.

If you've got some extra tacks that you got from Crazy Crow, file the head and see how deep the plating is. I can't see how they can sell 100 tacks with a solid brass head for $8.00. The regular cobbler's tacks in solid brass that I buy from Gurney Mfg. is $50 to $60 per pound and I buy wholesale. I've been in the leather business for over 30 years, and the only tacks I've seen with a solid brass head is not concave on the back, they are solid and the steel nail is cast into the head not broached or clinched. I looked at the Crazy Horse ad and it's very misleading, they state "Silver & Brass Tacks - Solid Brass Nails" I believe they are referring to the color of the tacks, otherwise that would be a darn good deal on 100 solid silver or solid brass tacks. They state their nails are solid brass and should also say that the tacks are as well, but for that price they are most likely gilt brass plated steel. The going price for the same type solid brass tacks is .60 to .75 cents each according to quantity.

​

 

[user 48702]

I've been doing business with them as a dealer for nearly 50 years. Take a file to one of your tacks.
They do have solid brass NAILS, but not tacks.

Notice in the description. Finishes, as in plated. No where is solid brass mentioned or implied.
Round Head High Dome Silver & Brass Tacks: half-round heads for axes, knife sheaths, cutting boards, etc. Available in brass, antique and antique silver finishes.

Sorry, Waksupi, I was typing as you made your post. If you ever need any small diameter solid brass, copper, or steel nails or tacks, check out D B Gurney they have been making tacks and nails, including hob nails since before the Civil War, and are still USA made.

 

[LongWalker]

Sorry, I don't believe it. If what you say is true, I do not believe Crazy Crow was your source.

Crazy Crow used to have solid-brass-head tacks, but not since around 2006 (purchased in-store). I bought several thousand "brass" tacks from Crazy Crow in 2018 (mail order). All brass-plated steel. THAT fiasco cost me >$2k by the time I was done replacing tack belts, sheaths, and a carved war club damaged by the rust from the tacks.

Several of the upholstery suppliers used to carry a variety of brass tacks with heads made of solid brass sheet, punched and domed, with a steel shank added. These are almost unobtainium these days, with no current suppliers I can find. I've purchased samples of 1/4" high-dome "brass" tacks from every supplier I can find, and they are all brass-plated.

The Trunk Shoppe is out of business and has been for a long time. I still have a small stash of their tacks. It has reached the point that sometimes on furniture restorations I've made the tacks--something that only makes economic sense on rare occasions, mostly high-dollar furniture with odd-sized tacks. The last tack scabbard I made used ~75 tacks, and no one in their right mind is going to pay what it would cost to make 75 tacks.

Chuck Burrows had a theory that the early tacked sheaths shown in Miller were actually commercial sheaths purchased in St. Louis, and held together with rivets. Maybe. . . it would be a period method of construction, and such sheaths were in use in the East at the time. Brass "spots" like Andy52 showed don't seem to show up in the catalogs until sometime after 1870; I"d welcome hearing from anyone who has found them in a catalog that pre-dates 1875.

 

[waksupi]

Doing restoration work my main source of brass tacks, was salvaging from old trunks. Even those have pretty much disappeared now. There was a guy in Europe a year or so ago making them, in the expected price range for what were essentially hand made tacks.