"A soldier's musket, if not exceedingly ill-bored (as many of them are), will strike the figure of a man at eighty yards; it may even at 100; but a soldier must be very unfortunate indeed who shall be wounded by a common musket at 150 yards, provided his antagonist aims at him; and as to firing at a man at 200 yards with a common musket, you may just as well fire at the moon and have the same hopes of hitting your object. I do maintain and will prove, whenever called on, that no man was ever killed at 200 yards, by a common soldier's musket, by the person who aimed at him." - Colonel George Hanger, 1814
-
Friends, our 2nd Amendment rights are always under attack and the NRA has been a constant for decades in helping fight that fight.
We have partnered with the NRA to offer you a discount on membership and Muzzleloading Forum gets a small percentage too of each membership, so you are supporting both the NRA and us.
Use this link to sign up please; https://membership.nra.org/recruiters/join/XR045103
Brown Bess Accuracy Stanadards?
- Thread starter Cessnapilot89
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
Was just looking that up to quote on this thread when I found yours. also another test quoted in Firepower record shooting at a 6foot tall target 100 feet long recorded 17% hits at 300 yards. A company of people would be about 40% standing shoulder to shoulder so that could mean 7% hits at that range. Maybe actively 1% under field conditions when smoke and fire and adrenalin conspired to throw off ones aim.
Still it took about 70 shots to make one hit during the revolution,700 shots during the TWBS and 70,000 during veitnam.
Still it took about 70 shots to make one hit during the revolution,700 shots during the TWBS and 70,000 during veitnam.
Used in the context of the pc load of 167 grns it is not that heavy to shoot because that included the powder for the pan and the ball was undersize to allow for quick and easy reloading with a fowled bore , ball size of .67-.69 was the norm. Don't 'take all the negative reports about musket ability to heart as for every bad esay there are just as many reports in the positive, it must be remembered that all of this is more a reflection of the officer and his abilities with all things military at that point in time .
At the time of the AWI the British forces were using a much more open order type of formations with a big effort on Lights and dropping the normal 3 and 4 deep lines of infantry in favour for 2 lines, this was to counter the perceived effect of fire from American riflemen.At the same time the Americans were being trained in the opposite direction to make them more professional and to be able to match the British on the field .Neck stocks do not effect the ability to aim a Brown Bess but rather they make a soldier very hot in battle and on the march because they seriously stop air circulation around the neck etc. and stop air flow into the front of the shirt .It should also be taken into account but usually never is that a Dress Regt. uniform was not what was usually worn in the field .
At the time of the AWI the British forces were using a much more open order type of formations with a big effort on Lights and dropping the normal 3 and 4 deep lines of infantry in favour for 2 lines, this was to counter the perceived effect of fire from American riflemen.At the same time the Americans were being trained in the opposite direction to make them more professional and to be able to match the British on the field .Neck stocks do not effect the ability to aim a Brown Bess but rather they make a soldier very hot in battle and on the march because they seriously stop air circulation around the neck etc. and stop air flow into the front of the shirt .It should also be taken into account but usually never is that a Dress Regt. uniform was not what was usually worn in the field .
I'm not a BB shooter, but I collect stuff about them occasionally. Here's a bit I collected from Don Hagist years ago that some might find interesting.Many Klatch said:
Before the AWI an order came down to reduce the powder used previously for Brown Bess in the British army.
"General after orders 21st Novr. [1774]
The Regiments will observe in firing at marks that the quantity of powder necessary for each cartridge (as it has been found upon many trials) that forty or forty- two Cartridges to a pound of powder will carry a ball truer than thirty two Cartridges, which is the number usually made up with a pound of powder."
[General Orders, America. WO 36/1, Public Record Office, London. This collection of orders given between June 10, 1773 and January 10, 1776, mostly from Boston.]
I did the conversion:
42/lb. = 167 gr.
40/lb. = 175 gr.
32/lb. = 219 gr.
Not all officers were ready to accept the change without question:
"Yesterday was given out an Order to the Corps in Garrison, that when they fire with Ball they are to use Cartridges 42 in the pound, as they are found to throw a Ball with more justness and to do equal execution with those of 32 to the pound. By whose experiment has this been proved?"
[The British in Boston: Being the Diary of Lieutenant John Barker of the King's Own Regiment from November 15, 1774 to May 31, 1776. CambridgeUniversity Press, 1924.]
Spence
Could be? Was the precursor to the Lance Corporal rank that followed the Napoleonic Wars:
Wiki.en
Lance corporal, at the time not a rank but an appointment historically known as chosen man and carrying extra pay for privates holding it...
Chosen man: was a rank primarily found in the The Rifle Brigade denoting a marksman and/or leadership material.
Wikia
Chosen Men were the Napoleonic eras equivalent of todays Lance Corporal. Whilst one step below the NCO (Non-comissioned Officer) ranks, the Chosen Man was selected from the ranks to lead a sub-unit of the Company, often for their intelligence and ability. The rank was unofficial insomuch as it was used only within the Company, with Commanding Officers able to promote and demote at will those who were chosen to wear the single white armband which denoted Chosen Men. Thy were usually spared ordinary duties, and often went on to become NCOs.
Wiki.en
Lance corporal, at the time not a rank but an appointment historically known as chosen man and carrying extra pay for privates holding it...
Chosen man: was a rank primarily found in the The Rifle Brigade denoting a marksman and/or leadership material.
Wikia
Chosen Men were the Napoleonic eras equivalent of todays Lance Corporal. Whilst one step below the NCO (Non-comissioned Officer) ranks, the Chosen Man was selected from the ranks to lead a sub-unit of the Company, often for their intelligence and ability. The rank was unofficial insomuch as it was used only within the Company, with Commanding Officers able to promote and demote at will those who were chosen to wear the single white armband which denoted Chosen Men. Thy were usually spared ordinary duties, and often went on to become NCOs.
Remember too that Sir John Moore was one of the ranking officers who got the "Light" regiments going at Shorncliffe in Kent. Besides the "Experimental Corps of Riflemen" that eventually became the 95th Rifle Regiment, the 60th also trained with rifles. The "Light" regiments, namely, the 43rd, 51st, 52nd, 68th, & 85th trained out to be battalion sharpshooters and served together as regiments when it was decided to piecemeal out the riflemen from the 95th & 60th to the regular foot regiments as skirmishers.
The "Light Bobs" were indeed taught to take aim but it must not be forgotten they were issued out with the most up-to-date version of the Bess made for those conditions...the "New Land Pattern Light Infantry Musket". Although it had the same 39" barrel as the "India Pattern", it also had a browned barrel, flat lock plate and cock, scroll trigger guard and a fixed rear sight. Individual soldiers were trained with several times the live cartridge "shooting at marks" and encouraged to develop loads specific to their individual musket. The whole practice came about as a way to effectively deal with the swarms of French "Voltigeur" skirmishers used in the then current Napoleonic battle tactics.
The line regiments thundered away at each other in the accepted fashion after the "Light Bobs" managed to thin out the enemy skirmishers and go for the enemy officers and NCOs to shake up the command structure. Though this was an effective development in tactics, it never became wide spread through the foot regiments who continued to fight in the double line configuration against the French "column" tactic. In the end, it worked. Still it would be 1853 before the smooth bore musket was replaced in the British army.
The "Light Bobs" were indeed taught to take aim but it must not be forgotten they were issued out with the most up-to-date version of the Bess made for those conditions...the "New Land Pattern Light Infantry Musket". Although it had the same 39" barrel as the "India Pattern", it also had a browned barrel, flat lock plate and cock, scroll trigger guard and a fixed rear sight. Individual soldiers were trained with several times the live cartridge "shooting at marks" and encouraged to develop loads specific to their individual musket. The whole practice came about as a way to effectively deal with the swarms of French "Voltigeur" skirmishers used in the then current Napoleonic battle tactics.
The line regiments thundered away at each other in the accepted fashion after the "Light Bobs" managed to thin out the enemy skirmishers and go for the enemy officers and NCOs to shake up the command structure. Though this was an effective development in tactics, it never became wide spread through the foot regiments who continued to fight in the double line configuration against the French "column" tactic. In the end, it worked. Still it would be 1853 before the smooth bore musket was replaced in the British army.
Cessnapilot89
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2014
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 0
This thread became a lot more interesting while I was gone at work.
Could be Phil...
Anyway, the skinny Lights' Bess was the same, yes. And as (in)accurate. It was their quick unit movement and focus on special tactical maneuvering, formations on and around the battlefield, and discipline that made them different and uniquely effective when employed properly.
Anyway, the skinny Lights' Bess was the same, yes. And as (in)accurate. It was their quick unit movement and focus on special tactical maneuvering, formations on and around the battlefield, and discipline that made them different and uniquely effective when employed properly.
Folks,
The belly box held 9 to 18 rounds. The hip box held 18+ cartridges as the AWI progressed.
As for turning the head when firing, turning only means you get burnt on the back of the head instead of the cheek. IF it was a reaction to a worn touch hole it is more likely a soldier would duck his left cheak to his left shoulder, and take the burn on his hat not his body. The leather neck stock wasn't used until the 19th century, and the soldiers could move their heads... the neck stock was merely thought to provide a neat appearance, and later somebody thought a thick, leather stock might help against saber cuts from Napoleonic cavalry...
Turning the heads may have been more an exercise for the soldiers in tight ranks looking down the line to the right so they could see the Serjeant or Officer giving the fire command.. and perhaps to see either the officer's sword come down, or the serjeant's halberd move thus indicating FIRE!... imagine that after several rounds while being surrounded by 50-100 men in one company firing 150+ grains of powder in each musket per shot... the soldiers probably couldn't hear.
By the AWI the British Infanty in North America fought at "open order" standing one arm's length apart and in two ranks..., nobody is being hit with the spray from the musket touch hole on a regular basis, and the men are too spread out to turn their heads to see people motioning to fire, so they had to hear the fire command. Firing at marks was important as was maintaining the line when attacking with bayonets at open order. See With Zeal and With Bayonets Only by Matthew Spring.
Light infantry was created for the F&I and then created again for the AWI. The light infantry were sometimes formed into "Marksmen" companies, and were issued loose ball and powder to make their own cartridges for accuracy. They were expected to be able to consistantly hit a 2'wide by 6' high target at 90 yards, offhand, to be considered a marksman. A full round hole was a "hit" anywhere on the target board counted... it was hit or miss, and if you consider it, if you put the full diameter of a musket ball through somebody's body part that pretty much would take them out of the fight, whether it was an ankle, wrist, or someplace else, no?
Just like rifles, the marksman of the British army had to either stop and swab the bore at some point in the battle, or had to start using standard ammunition not made to "fit" his musket's bore as the fouling increased.
The British employed rifles in the F&I, Pontiac's Rebellion, and the AWI. The Ordinance Rifle Pattern 1776 is a famous example, and Henry Bouquet mentions procuring rifles in his action against the Ottawas during Pontiac's rebellion (iirc).
As for the accuracy of the reproduction Bess.. you should be able to put the ball in the vitals of a deer standing broadside to you at 50 yards. You may be hampered by the very large bayonet lug that is used as a front sight post. Some folks report very good success by making a paper cartridge that fits inside the bore, and holds the musket ball in the same position, rather than using a patched ball where the patching material creates inconsistant folds from shot to shot.
I have seen fellows make a rear sight for hunting purposes that affixes to the musket by using a tang bolt. I have also seen fellows with a very wide bayonet lug make a \/ notch in the top giving them a tighter point of reference, as well as one clever fellow who took a thin jewlers saw, after using a pen to mark his bayonet lug where it shot true, he created a slot in the lug, and then added a thin piece of German silver. He smoothed this down to the top of the lug, and then browned the lug a bit...so the steel was dark but the silver stayed bright... so he ended up with a very visible, verticle | line as an aiming point, and it also didn't interfere with his using his bayonet at historic events.
LD
The belly box held 9 to 18 rounds. The hip box held 18+ cartridges as the AWI progressed.
As for turning the head when firing, turning only means you get burnt on the back of the head instead of the cheek. IF it was a reaction to a worn touch hole it is more likely a soldier would duck his left cheak to his left shoulder, and take the burn on his hat not his body. The leather neck stock wasn't used until the 19th century, and the soldiers could move their heads... the neck stock was merely thought to provide a neat appearance, and later somebody thought a thick, leather stock might help against saber cuts from Napoleonic cavalry...
Turning the heads may have been more an exercise for the soldiers in tight ranks looking down the line to the right so they could see the Serjeant or Officer giving the fire command.. and perhaps to see either the officer's sword come down, or the serjeant's halberd move thus indicating FIRE!... imagine that after several rounds while being surrounded by 50-100 men in one company firing 150+ grains of powder in each musket per shot... the soldiers probably couldn't hear.
By the AWI the British Infanty in North America fought at "open order" standing one arm's length apart and in two ranks..., nobody is being hit with the spray from the musket touch hole on a regular basis, and the men are too spread out to turn their heads to see people motioning to fire, so they had to hear the fire command. Firing at marks was important as was maintaining the line when attacking with bayonets at open order. See With Zeal and With Bayonets Only by Matthew Spring.
Light infantry was created for the F&I and then created again for the AWI. The light infantry were sometimes formed into "Marksmen" companies, and were issued loose ball and powder to make their own cartridges for accuracy. They were expected to be able to consistantly hit a 2'wide by 6' high target at 90 yards, offhand, to be considered a marksman. A full round hole was a "hit" anywhere on the target board counted... it was hit or miss, and if you consider it, if you put the full diameter of a musket ball through somebody's body part that pretty much would take them out of the fight, whether it was an ankle, wrist, or someplace else, no?
Just like rifles, the marksman of the British army had to either stop and swab the bore at some point in the battle, or had to start using standard ammunition not made to "fit" his musket's bore as the fouling increased.
The British employed rifles in the F&I, Pontiac's Rebellion, and the AWI. The Ordinance Rifle Pattern 1776 is a famous example, and Henry Bouquet mentions procuring rifles in his action against the Ottawas during Pontiac's rebellion (iirc).
As for the accuracy of the reproduction Bess.. you should be able to put the ball in the vitals of a deer standing broadside to you at 50 yards. You may be hampered by the very large bayonet lug that is used as a front sight post. Some folks report very good success by making a paper cartridge that fits inside the bore, and holds the musket ball in the same position, rather than using a patched ball where the patching material creates inconsistant folds from shot to shot.
I have seen fellows make a rear sight for hunting purposes that affixes to the musket by using a tang bolt. I have also seen fellows with a very wide bayonet lug make a \/ notch in the top giving them a tighter point of reference, as well as one clever fellow who took a thin jewlers saw, after using a pen to mark his bayonet lug where it shot true, he created a slot in the lug, and then added a thin piece of German silver. He smoothed this down to the top of the lug, and then browned the lug a bit...so the steel was dark but the silver stayed bright... so he ended up with a very visible, verticle | line as an aiming point, and it also didn't interfere with his using his bayonet at historic events.
LD
Folks,
The belly box held 9 to 18 rounds. The hip box held 18+ cartridges as the AWI progressed.
As for turning the head when firing, turning only means you get burnt on the back of the head instead of the cheek. IF it was a reaction to a worn touch hole it is more likely a soldier would duck his left cheak to his left shoulder, and take the burn on his hat not his body. The leather neck stock wasn't used until the 19th century, and the soldiers could move their heads... the neck stock was merely thought to provide a neat appearance, and later somebody thought a thick, leather stock might help against saber cuts from Napoleonic cavalry...
Turning the heads may have been more an exercise for the soldiers in tight ranks looking down the line to the right so they could see the Serjeant or Officer giving the fire command.. and perhaps to see either the officer's sword come down, or the serjeant's halberd move thus indicating FIRE!... imagine that after several rounds while being surrounded by 50-100 men in one company firing 150+ grains of powder in each musket per shot... the soldiers probably couldn't hear.
By the AWI the British Infanty in North America fought at "open order" standing one arm's length apart and in two ranks..., nobody is being hit with the spray from the musket touch hole on a regular basis, and the men are too spread out to turn their heads to see people motioning to fire, so they had to hear the fire command. Firing at marks was important as was maintaining the line when attacking with bayonets at open order. See With Zeal and With Bayonets Only by Matthew Spring.
Light infantry was created for the F&I and then created again for the AWI. The light infantry were sometimes formed into "Marksmen" companies, and were issued loose ball and powder to make their own cartridges for accuracy. They were expected to be able to consistantly hit a 2'wide by 6' high target at 90 yards, offhand, to be considered a marksman. A full round hole was a "hit" anywhere on the target board counted... it was hit or miss, and if you consider it, if you put the full diameter of a musket ball through somebody's body part that pretty much would take them out of the fight, whether it was an ankle, wrist, or someplace else, no?
Just like rifles, the marksman of the British army had to either stop and swab the bore at some point in the battle, or had to start using standard ammunition not made to "fit" his musket's bore as the fouling increased.
The British employed rifles in the F&I, Pontiac's Rebellion, and the AWI. The Ordinance Rifle Pattern 1776 is a famous example, and Henry Bouquet mentions procuring rifles in his action against the Ottawas during Pontiac's rebellion (iirc).
As for the accuracy of the reproduction Bess.. you should be able to put the ball in the vitals of a deer standing broadside to you at 50 yards. You may be hampered by the very large bayonet lug that is used as a front sight post. Some folks report very good success by making a paper cartridge that fits inside the bore, and holds the musket ball in the same position, rather than using a patched ball where the patching material creates inconsistant folds from shot to shot.
I have seen fellows make a rear sight for hunting purposes that affixes to the musket attaching it at the tang bolt. I have also seen fellows with a very wide bayonet lug make a \/ notch in the top giving them a tighter point of reference, as well as one clever fellow who took a thin jewlers saw, after using a pen to mark his bayonet lug where it shot true, he created a slot in the lug, and then added a thin piece of German silver. He smoothed this down to the top of the lug, and then browned the lug a bit...so the steel was dark but the silver stayed bright... so he ended up with a very visible, verticle | line as an aiming point, and it also didn't interfere with his using his bayonet at historic events.
LD
The belly box held 9 to 18 rounds. The hip box held 18+ cartridges as the AWI progressed.
As for turning the head when firing, turning only means you get burnt on the back of the head instead of the cheek. IF it was a reaction to a worn touch hole it is more likely a soldier would duck his left cheak to his left shoulder, and take the burn on his hat not his body. The leather neck stock wasn't used until the 19th century, and the soldiers could move their heads... the neck stock was merely thought to provide a neat appearance, and later somebody thought a thick, leather stock might help against saber cuts from Napoleonic cavalry...
Turning the heads may have been more an exercise for the soldiers in tight ranks looking down the line to the right so they could see the Serjeant or Officer giving the fire command.. and perhaps to see either the officer's sword come down, or the serjeant's halberd move thus indicating FIRE!... imagine that after several rounds while being surrounded by 50-100 men in one company firing 150+ grains of powder in each musket per shot... the soldiers probably couldn't hear.
By the AWI the British Infanty in North America fought at "open order" standing one arm's length apart and in two ranks..., nobody is being hit with the spray from the musket touch hole on a regular basis, and the men are too spread out to turn their heads to see people motioning to fire, so they had to hear the fire command. Firing at marks was important as was maintaining the line when attacking with bayonets at open order. See With Zeal and With Bayonets Only by Matthew Spring.
Light infantry was created for the F&I and then created again for the AWI. The light infantry were sometimes formed into "Marksmen" companies, and were issued loose ball and powder to make their own cartridges for accuracy. They were expected to be able to consistantly hit a 2'wide by 6' high target at 90 yards, offhand, to be considered a marksman. A full round hole was a "hit" anywhere on the target board counted... it was hit or miss, and if you consider it, if you put the full diameter of a musket ball through somebody's body part that pretty much would take them out of the fight, whether it was an ankle, wrist, or someplace else, no?
Just like rifles, the marksman of the British army had to either stop and swab the bore at some point in the battle, or had to start using standard ammunition not made to "fit" his musket's bore as the fouling increased.
The British employed rifles in the F&I, Pontiac's Rebellion, and the AWI. The Ordinance Rifle Pattern 1776 is a famous example, and Henry Bouquet mentions procuring rifles in his action against the Ottawas during Pontiac's rebellion (iirc).
As for the accuracy of the reproduction Bess.. you should be able to put the ball in the vitals of a deer standing broadside to you at 50 yards. You may be hampered by the very large bayonet lug that is used as a front sight post. Some folks report very good success by making a paper cartridge that fits inside the bore, and holds the musket ball in the same position, rather than using a patched ball where the patching material creates inconsistant folds from shot to shot.
I have seen fellows make a rear sight for hunting purposes that affixes to the musket attaching it at the tang bolt. I have also seen fellows with a very wide bayonet lug make a \/ notch in the top giving them a tighter point of reference, as well as one clever fellow who took a thin jewlers saw, after using a pen to mark his bayonet lug where it shot true, he created a slot in the lug, and then added a thin piece of German silver. He smoothed this down to the top of the lug, and then browned the lug a bit...so the steel was dark but the silver stayed bright... so he ended up with a very visible, verticle | line as an aiming point, and it also didn't interfere with his using his bayonet at historic events.
LD
Bill Bizoff
32 Cal.
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2012
- Messages
- 24
- Reaction score
- 0
This may help make sense of what we think of as very heavy charges.
According to Mark Tully’s Packet IV, apothecaries measure was used at that time to measure gun powder. 12 oz. = 1 lb. or 5760 gr.. 32 cartridges to the pound would be 180 gr., 42 cartridges to the pound would be 137 gr., and 10 ”“ 15 gr. would be used to prime.
Bill
According to Mark Tully’s Packet IV, apothecaries measure was used at that time to measure gun powder. 12 oz. = 1 lb. or 5760 gr.. 32 cartridges to the pound would be 180 gr., 42 cartridges to the pound would be 137 gr., and 10 ”“ 15 gr. would be used to prime.
Bill
