Brown Bess Carbine?

[Rebel]

OK, this may have been discused here before, but i can't find anything about it. Do any of you have any experience with the Bess Carbine? Pedersoli as well as Military Heritage have them. Would a 30 1/2" barrel be too short to get the best performance? I have a double barrel .12 ga ML'er that has 28" barrels, and it does fine. Could i expect about the same performance with the Bess Carbine? I was thinking it might make a good close range (most of the shots around here would be under 50 yds.)deer and elk gun as well as work well with shot for birds. Any thoughts on this? Military Heritage has them for $445 American.

 

[Rat]

Oh boy you came to the right place.

I got a Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine kit a couple of years ago, and I'll tell you I can't tell you enough good things about it.

My Bess has VERY fast ignition, and as far as I can tell is 100% reliable, sure fire. That big old musket lock and 1" flint...it just goes off. Period.

She shoots shot really great. My "turkey" loads seem to be as tight as many modern guns, and I bet I could shoot pheasant or duck with it, had I a mind to. I've limited out on grouse with her, she's a great grouse gun. I should admit that I do use a paper patched 12 guage plastic shot cup. But she'd be the equal of any other BP/ML shot gun with traditional shot loads.

I put old-timey full buckhorn rifle sights on mine, which look "right" on the gun, whether or not they are not actually "PC". However, this impressively, substantially extends the range of the weapon over that of a musket with a bayonet lug for a sight. With my Bess, a tight patch and ball, and the sights, any 50 yard animal is dead meat for sure.

I don't/can't see where the 30.5" barrel suffers much from a performance standpoint. The gun handles really nice, and will safely handle any black powder shot load, within reason, or 100 to 110 grains of Swiss under a ball. (and I've heard of people loading hotter than that) In other words you can safely load up to compensate for the shorter barrel. You'd have to get into some insanely hot loads before the carbine could not keep up with a standard length Bess, velocity-wise. Did I say the gun handles nice? That is definately an understatement.

Anything else you want to know, just ask. I love mine and it's a keeper for life. Hope to hear comments from others on this, I sure am happy with mine. It's an amazing gun...I never get tired of picking mine up and just saying "wow". This is one great gun.

$445 sounds pretty low for a Bess...you may want to check into the quality on that. I paid somewhere around $650 for the Pedersoli. (But I just paid $450 for a 1861 Springfield, and it's a real jewell...so???)

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Rat, thanks for the input on the Bess. I didn't know yours was a carbine. I thought you had either a long or short land. The Bess for $445 is from Military Heritage in Canada. I understand they are made to exact original Bess specs in India. I was thinking the short barrel might handle better than a longer one, and weigh less. I was thinking about putting a rear sight on it if i get one. How did you install the rear sight? Is it soldered or dovetailed. What size ball do you use in yours? Do you think a 10 ga plastic shot cup would fit in the bore? I want it mainly for deer, elk and turkey hunting. Do you use the bayonet lug for the front sight as it came? Any info would be appreciated. It is a toss up between the carbine and a 3rd Model India pattern with the 39" barrel. I think the carbine would be nicer handling. What do you think?

 

[Gary]

It'll suffer as a fowler but for taking bigger game, it won't make a difference.

Recall that one of the reasons why barrels were so long was because of the linear tactics required men to stand in close proximity to one another. A short barrel would mean the muzzle would be near another chap's ear or eye. :shocking: Longer barrels are safer. Second, longer barrels were good because it meant that the bayonet could be further out - good for repelling cavalry.

So, when we're talking carbine length guns (like for cavalry or specialized infantry), why not? After all, we don't have any Loyalists (or Frenchies if you're into Napoleonic era) shooting back.

 

[Rebel]

Well, i don't think i will be repeling many infantry charges with a bayonet, so that shouldn't be a concern. I would think that it will swing faster on birds with the shorter barrel, more like my 28" barrels on my double barrel. And for deer and elk in close cover i would think it would be as good or better than a long barrel.

 

[robinghewitt]

How did you install the rear sight? Is it soldered or dovetailed.

A rear sight on a Bess??? :shocking: :cry:

That would be like fitting a bayonet to Ol' Betsy :crackup:

When talking Bess, the word carbine can mean 0.69" bore rather than short barreled. Check now to avoid disappointment.

Either way, those big military locks with their long lazy swings give good flint life and sure fire ignition. A good choice.

 

[Rebel]

Robin, this is a shortened Bess, not a smaller cal. one. It has a 30 1/2" barrel and is still .75 cal. Rear sight? You must have misunderstood. I said i want something to prevent me from getting a DEER BITE. :: ::

 

[musketman]

Rear sight? You must have misunderstood. I said i want something to prevent me from getting a DEER BITE. :: ::

Ever shoot a double bead shotgun barrel?

If so, the same can be done to a bess, just superglue a "BB" to the barrel "top dead center" about 6 inches up from the breech...

This is my preferred method for teaching shooters how to use a rear sightless barrel, after a while, replace the BB with a smaller shot, #4, then #9 then nothing...

But a BB will work fine for a rear sight, trust me... :redthumb:

 

[Rebel]

Musketman, yep, that superglue is some good stuff. I used it to glue a rear sight in between the barrels on my double barrel .12 ga. Navy Arms ML'er. Worked great. Both barrel shot to point of aim at 25 yds., and put 6 shots, (3 from each barrel) into one large hole. Will have to give that BB idea a try if i am able to get the Bess. Sounds like it just might work. Thanks for the advice.

 

[musketman]

If you can't shake the standard rear sight image, then take two BB's and superglue them on the breech tang with a small gap between them, then just sight the front blade between the gap like you would any other rear sight...

 

[Rebel]

Well, i want to try to learn to shoot it like it was meant to be shot, but at the same time, i want to be as accurate as possible when shooting at game animals. So if that means a rear sight, so be it. I did superglue a rear sight on the Early English Tradegun i had, but that gun never would shoot good. Had problems with the lock, frizzen broke, springs were too weak, etc. Sent it back to North Star West and he was supposed to fix it and polish the insides. Wasn't any better when i got it back. Never did spark well. Not near as well as the Pedersoli Frontier flinter i had. And the barrel was to light on it. So, i sold it. Now i want another flintlock smoothbore, and i am thinking of a Bess. Figure a Bess or the Colonial smoothbore in .75 cal. from Early Rustic Arms.

 

[Rat]

Wouldn't BB's glued to the barrel look kind of....er, ah...funky??? !!!

:crackup:

I mean, at least a nice full or semi-buckhorn long rifle sight looks "normal". Believe it or not, there is an original musket from the colonial period, in the NRA museum I believe, that has rifle sights on it.

:results:

No, but seriously, if you purchase a rear sight intended for a long rifle, you can re-shape the base into a curve to match the barrel by clamping the appropriate file in a vise, and then working the sight on the file...draw the sight towards you across the file. It does not have to be perfect, as the solder will fill in very slight gaps.

I got a full buckhorn sight from TOW that I believe was a replica of something on an original Hawken. For me, the full buckhorn frames birds real nice such as grouse. But it looks really cool, and "old timey" too.

Then yes just solder it on. I have found that a smoothbore does not throw it's shots left or right like a rifled bore, so to get the sight centered for windage, get a piece of dental floss, tie a loop on the end, loop the loop over the bayonet lug, and bring it back so it crosses the tang hole dead center, and you have a pretty good center line to line up your rear sight before soldering. If you do that I think you'll find it will be on, windage-wise, or that's how it has worked for me, with Bess and a couple of single-shot modern shotguns that I put rifle sights on.

:results:

For a front sight I just took a hack-saw blade and carefully slotted the bayonet lug, then made a blade out of a penny, and soldered it in. Don't use much heat. Left it tall of course, and then sighted in with a file. Looks great works greater. No offense to anyone but I think you'd be much more satisfied, and proud of the gun than if you super-glued BB's on the barrel. With rifle sights a musket will really shoot. I mean, take the rear sight off yer rifle, and glue a bayonet lug on up front, and see if your groups open up a bit.

:cry:

If you ever had regrets, or just wanted a bird-gun with a bead on the front, you can apply a bit of heat and the sights will come right off. But with rifle sights Bess can do it all, Elk, deer, and Turk. That's what I use mine for, and grouse too. (maybe a black bear next week...???) The sights are good to have when shooting Turkey too, since you only get one shot.

On the shot cups, I believe the 10 guage would be too tight. But by post-it-noting a 12 guage cup, you can then fold the paper over the end, and have a self-contained shot charge.

On ball size, I'd imagine that barrels from different MFG's will vary quite a bit, or even gun to gun from the same mfg. My barrel seems to mic out at a "tight" .750, so I use a thin patch, (never measured it) a wonder wad, and a .735" ball.

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Rat, thanks for the info. I think MM meant for the BB's to be glued on temporarily until you get used to shooting with no rear sight. I think i like the idea of real sights though, as what i want the gun for is hunting, not
re-inacting. And i am sure that in the old days, there had to be a least a few people with smoothbore muskets that thought the same thing and had a rear sight installed. What say you Zonie, is that how it were back when you was a young'un? :: ::

 

[Wes/Tex]

There actually was a sighted Bess, the New Land Pattern Light Infantry Model issued out to the then new Light Infantry regiments and the companies of the 60th and KGL Light Infantry not carrying Baker Rifles. The guns used the bayonet lug as the front sight so things were iffy but at least it was of some use while skirmishing ahead of the lines as they were intended to do. There's no reason this couldn't be copied although the Besses actually had flat locks and cocks, Indian Pattern 39" barrels and a scrolled trigger guard that was curlled back as a pistol grip. To be done right you'd have to use one of the East India Pattern guns now being imported but if they're having as much trouble with the breech plugs as has been mentioned on some sites this may not be an option. You can always cut a sight out of a Budweiser can and Super Glue that sucker to the barrel! Now that's class with a capital "K"!!!! :blah:

 

[musketman]

Rat, thanks for the info. I think MM meant for the BB's to be glued on temporarily until you get used to shooting with no rear sight.

That is correct, it is a weaning process to get people use to sighting with just the front sight...

Once the BB/shot is no longer needed, simply knock it off and continue shooting...

 

[Stumpkiller]

I dunno. How about a lazer pointer taped to the forend? :shake:

The trick to learning with a sightless gun is to start close and move backwards gradually - just as with learning to shoot a bow instinctively. Buy yourself a cheap BB gun and grind the sights off. You'll be surprised how fast your mind (the best ballistic computer in the known Universe) picks up the flight of the BB. This also has the advantage of allowing you to actually see the flight of the BB on sunny days, as you should be focused on the target and not the sights or the barrel. I treat my musket like a bow with a slightly longer range (60 yards vs 25 yards).

Using sights will never prepare you for not using sights.

My New Englander has a 27" barrel and it tosses a 0.715" PRB respectably.

 

[Rat]

Oh I know, just had to flip him a little. !!!

:blah:

I appreciate it that no one took offense, or thought I was trying to be a horse's arse.

:relax:

Even so, I will still maintain that "real" sights will still give much better accuracy, even if one did the BB thing. That big-old square chunk of bayonet lug is never going to be very precise. But it sure makes a good base to slot for a blade.

Again, you can take the sights off a rifle and put on a bead, and probably learn to shoot it "pretty good", but one would never get the same groups as with the sights. And the further out you shoot, or the closer you shoot to your maximum range, the less precise it gets. That's not good!

And my last argument is that appropriate time-period-looking sights such as found on a long-rifle DON'T look out of place on a musket...they look "natural".

Now if a guy stuck some modern, adjustable sights off an inline rifle on a Bess...THEN I'd have to PUKE!!!

:curse: :redface: :cry:

Rat

 

[Rebel]

Stumpy, :RO: now why didn't i think of that. A nice lazer sight, or one of them Red dot sights, or maybe even drill and tap and put on a nice Leupold 3x9 scope for precise shooting. Heck, there is no end to the possiblities. :crackup: :crackup: :relax: It ain't happenin'.

 

How bout a 4-12X range finding scope on a 4 Gauge BlunderBuss :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Claude Mathis]

I appreciate it that no one took offense, or thought I was trying to be a horse's arse.

:winking: