Brown Bess for first ML?

[mr.fudd]

I'm a long time avid shooter who's never done any muzzleloading before. Lately, I've developed hankering for something radically different. I've always liked milsurps and historically significant firearms, and what's got me interested right now is a Brown Bess reproduction. I'm thinking of one of the Indian Long Land Patterns from Middlesex.

My understanding is that with a tight patch these muskets are about minute of man at 100 yards and with a more traditional loose ball or buck and ball that they are minute of man at about 50 yards. That's OK with me. I have scoped bolt actions if I need to shoot one hole groups at 200 yards.

Is there some reason why this would be a bad choice for someone new to muzzleloading or should I go ahead and make the purchase?

I understand the Pedersoli's are better guns and I have also seen authentic Indian Pattern Brown Bess's out there at around $1000. I'm assuming that most of the antiques probably aren't safe to fire though. Is there enough difference in quality to warrant the higher cost of the Pedersoli. I normally shoot about once a week, but I'd probably only end up shooting the Brown Bess about once a month or so. The range I usually shoot at only allows paper targets and to me a musket seems like the kind of weapon that would be most fun for shooting milk jugs, pumpkins and other more interactive targets.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[PRM]

You will probably read varying posts on the Middlesex Guns. As far as their quality - I don't have any personal experience so I will leave that alone. I do have one of the Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbines and have been well pleased with the quality, fit/finish and reliability. I would not hesitate to buy another one if I needed it, or recommend them. Their great fun guns on the range and if you want to hunt, you have a big patched round ball or a shotgun. .12 gauge BP wads work great in mine. As far as accuracy - round ball is about the same as a .12 gauge slug. Anything I shoot at is going to be less than 75 yards.

 

[mckutzy]

the Italian Pedersoli muskets are pretty good but they do demand a steep price, i have seen several and and price aside they are definatly very good pieces.

 

[gizamo]

Pedersoli makes some pretty amazing guns...
I have three of their Sharps reproductions and can honestly say they are wonderfully fit and finished, and very accurate...

I have a Brown Bess by Pedersoli. It is every bit as nice on fit, finish, and detail as the others....I would not hesitate buying another...

giz

 

[trent/OH]

There are a couple of Besses on the used gun market right now. They tend to crop up on a fairly regular basis.

The Brown Bess was the first gun for many tens of thousands of men. British soldiers for generations carried it, and for many, if not most, it was the first gun they ever fired.
I own one, and thoroughly enjoy it.

 

[10 gauge]

I have the Pedersoli Brown bess, At 25yds it will make a ragged hole. At 50 yds it will do a 5-6 inch 3 shot groups. At 75 yds maybe a 20 inch group. After that your just donating lead back to the earth. Remember the Bess has no rear sight.
The Bess also makes a great flint lock shotgun, which is how I usually hunt with it.
If this accuracy is not up to your expectations maybe you might want to look into a civil war era percussion cap rifled musket. Well I hope this info may help you. 10 Gauge.

 

[flintlock75]

First off you will be better off with the pedersoli gun, much higher quality. It has a real gun barrel not a piece of tubbing.
Second, the brown bess is a fine gun depending on what you want to do with it. I have a carbine model and hunt with it alot, both with shot and PRB. It takes practice and persistance to learn to shoot a big smoothbore, With practice you should be able to keep all your shots on a pie plate at 50 yards all day.The stories of smoothbore muskets being inaccurate is a myth. This started because the military did not aim their muskets ,just point and shoot. They also used a ball that was .020 inch under bore size, speedy reloading was the goal not accuracy. With a PRB and 80grs of 2F I have shot 10" groups at 100 yards, at 50 yards 2"-3" groups. Good luck and have fun.

 

[Grizzled Roberts]

Back in the late 70s when I got started in this hobby, my first smoothbore ( for primitive matches
and re enactments ) was a Dixie Gun Works Jap brown bess kit. I shot it for many years utill I evolved into a North West gun. I then went to the Tulle De Chase ( can't spell French! ) and now shoot a TVM fowler in 28 gage. I still keep a couple of big nasty military muskets on hand for
fun matches. As for the Indian made muskets, MTC
is the only company that stands by their product.
I may wind up with one of their sawed off Brown Besses just for the heck of it :bow:
Pedersoli is the best made and you are paying for quality, Best that is unless you can afford a custom built musket.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Regarding the question of quality, I firmly believe the Pedersoli is the better gun and worth the price difference.

Often times, folks buy a flintlock firearm and figure they'll only shoot it now and then. But they discover it's like eating potato chips-you can't eat just one--and the flintlocks are equally addicting. So it is good to be certain before buying the gun just what its uses will be.

The Bess is a fine gun but it is heavy. I wouldn't choose it for my first gun for that reason alone. Any decent quality fowler will shoot well and, should you want to try wing shooting, will be a better choice. They will handle patched ball just fine and will be nicer to carry, being 3 or 4 pounds lighter. Check Track of the Wolf's web-site for prices. It's just an alternative....

 

[mr.fudd]

Thanks for all the replies. I originally posted this and then went out to work on my car expecting to find one or maybe two responses when I returned. It looks like a Brown Bess is definitely in my future. I don't think I'll have the cash for the Pedersoli though. I figure a new Indian reproduction or a used higher quality gun will run me $600-$750, then I'll probably need another $200 worth of ball molds, powder measures and other accessories to get into the hobby. I just don't have much more than that right now and don't anticipate any windfalls in the near future.

Rust T Frizzen, weight shouldn't be an issue for me. I've been lugging around 10 lb. rifles for years now and am pretty much used to it.

 

[Parzifal]

First off you will be better off with the pedersoli gun, much higher quality. It has a real gun barrel not a piece of tubbing.
Second, the brown bess is a fine gun depending on what you want to do with it. I have a carbine model and hunt with it alot, both with shot and PRB. It takes practice and persistance to learn to shoot a big smoothbore, With practice you should be able to keep all your shots on a pie plate at 50 yards all day.The stories of smoothbore muskets being inaccurate is a myth. This started because the military did not aim their muskets ,just point and shoot. They also used a ball that was .020 inch under bore size, speedy reloading was the goal not accuracy. With a PRB and 80grs of 2F I have shot 10" groups at 100 yards, at 50 yards 2"-3" groups. Good luck and have fun.

I have to disagree respectfully!
I have a Loyalist bess and the piedersoli.

The piedersoli is by a LOOOONG shot inferior, in relyability, and materials, poor cheaply cast brass, poor lock..Its just a headache.

The barrels on loyalists guns are very good and very safe they are REAL barrels and shoot quite well.


The only bonus I see with the piedersoli bess is the european walnut stock.
I have yet to experience the majestic quality with piedersolis flintlocks everyone talks about.

The older ones produced in the early 80s seem nice but every one I have handled seems to have poor springs, and inaccurate styling.

If your dead set on not getting a Middlesex or loyalist gun get a custom one or a parts kit built in America.

The piedersoli is just not worth the cash, in my opinion.

I enjoy the relyability, beauty and stoutness of my loyalist long land their customer service is TOP NOTCH!!

I like to shoot a heavily patched 69 cal ball over 70 - 80 grains of ffg

Its alot of fun.

 

[riarcher]

Pedersoli gets my vote.
Having had one for a few years now, I don't understand the bit about poor fit, bad castings, junk springs, etc.
Fit and finish on mine is quite fine (IMO). Never had issues with springs, frizzen, or sparking.
Ignition is quick and consistant.
Inside the barrel looks and feels as to be chromed (well seemingly).
In my opinion they (mine anyways) appears to be nothing short of a top quality production gun.
I use it for hunting most everything New England has to offer with both ball and shot.
I couldn't be happier with the reliability and consistancy.
Perhaps I just got lucky with this particular one? Doubt it.
Bought it used from Track. Little expensive maybe, but it'll be handed down the line when I'm gone I'm sure.

 

[J.D.]

I have had considerable experience with Pedersoli bess' and, IMHO, while the older ones appear to be higher quality, they still have their problems. Pedersoli is notorious for sloppy fits and misdrilled screw holes. The Pedersoli bess is, however, a dependable gun, despite its shortcomings.

IMHO, the new Pedersoli bess' don't appear to be as well made as the older ones, so buying a cared for used one might be a good idea.

I don't have any personal experience with the Indian made bess', however, I have heard that quality is deteriorating on those, so again, buying a slightly older Indian bess' might be the better way to go. Conversely, if an older Indian bess isn't any good, there is no way to replace it, other than sell it off and buy another. So there appears to be a catch 22 on the Indian guns.

Since flint guns are an entirely different animal than modern guns, I suggest getting in touch with a local black powder club to find a mentor to help you through the very steep learning curve associated with flint guns.

IMHO, the two reasons people get turned off with flint guns is getting frustrated with a poor quality gun with so many design flaws that it is a miracle that it works at all, and getting frustrated because of the learning curve associated with flinters in general. So, I suggest buying the highest quality gun you can afford, and finding a good mentor to help you through the rough spots that all new flint shooters experience.

Good luck,
J.D.

 

[Many Klatch]

I'll just chime in a little. My Pedersoli Bess Carbine will ring a 30" gong at 100 yards about 3 out of 5 shots. It takes some practice and some fiddling with the trigger pull, sights and what all, but that is what makes it so much fun.

Many Klatch

 

[gizamo]

Can you give me a timeline on the difference in quality between the newer and older Pedersoli's..
Mine was made in the later 1990's...last millenium :wink:

Where is everyone drawing the line in the sand on this? Mine is a very well made gun...Fit and finish are wonderful...

giz

 

[PRM]

Good question - I bought mine last year off of Gun Broker (NIB). The fit and finish is par with a custom made gun. In fact the grain is better in it than my TVM Tennessee Rifle. It does have a prettier striping than most, got lucky there. I am very very picky on my guns, this one is flawless and is a great shooter. You can get bad ones from any manufacture, and also some that rise above the benchmark. No complaints about my Bess or Pedersoli quality. :thumbsup:

 

[poordevil]

Here is my 2 cents. I have been shooting Muzzleloadiners since 1973 . I started with percussion revolvers and have a Parker-Hale english musketoon from 1975. I have had a Pedersoli Brown Bess and thought it the most beautiful gun I have ever owned. What I learned is that I could put up with it not being as accurate as a rifle, but the fact that a flintlock , no matter how well you care for it and fuss over it, will sometime not fire, and if I point a gun at something and pull the trigger I want a BANG! Dixie Gun Works sells a Pedersoli 1816 US musket that has been converted to percussion to use the large top hat caps. It is dated 1816 I understand so will appear to have been around the block. I sold my Brown Bess but if I were to get a large smothe bore musket again I would get that Percussion 1816. Also Look at Early Rustic Arms. Made in America and offer many flint muskets less than a Predersoli but better that the Indian types for about the same money......OK so this was more like 25 cents worth! Good luck!

ps Armi sport sells a 1842 musket 69 cal rifled or smooth(I have the rifle) Dixie has them on sell around X mass in the $500-600 range. Highly recamended!

P

 

[J.D.]

There is no line in the sand as a specific determinant of quality, that I am aware of. In general, the Ped bess is a decent gun. IMHO,the locks are pretty sloppy compared to American made locks. The Ped bess is, however a reliable gun, in spite of the lose tolerances on the internals.

I recently handled a new Ped bess at a local Cabelas and it didn't appear as well made as my old one. Mine was made in the mid 1980s, and I have been shooting it regularly since that time. I have won my share of smoothbore matches and killed my share of game with it and it has held up well, though the frizzen has been rehardened a few times.

I have seen the Indian made bess, but haven't handled one. From what I hear, they are heavier and more bulky than the Ped bess. Some like them, some don't. Quality was pretty spotty for a while, then improved, but I have heard reports that quality is deteriorating on the new Indian made guns. I dunno, I'm just reporting what I have heard.

As mentioned earlier, one of Early Rustic's guns might be a viable choice. Their Kentucky barn gun or Cumberland fowler in a .62 or .75 cal, 42 inch barrel would be a good choice for anyone wanting a decent smoothbore.
http://www.earlyrusticarms.com/pricesanddescriptions.htm

 

[riarcher]

Can you give me a timeline on the difference in quality between the newer and older Pedersoli's..
Mine was made in the later 1990's...last millenium :wink:

Where is everyone drawing the line in the sand on this? Mine is a very well made gun...Fit and finish are wonderful...giz

I honestly don't remember why, but for some reason I got the idea that mine was made in the late 1980's, possibly very early 1990's.
I vaguely remember asking Musketman (where'd he go by the way?)about it a few years back. Think it had something to do with the size of the loops in the sling mounts or serial no.? Honestly can't remember and frankly, it's not that important to me anymore.
If anyone can trace the date from the S/N I'll be happy to supply it though.

 

[thewho66]

I dont own one but a friend has an older itialan made one that as far as I can see works great. the springs are great even 20 years later. I have shot it with shot its devistating. If it were me I would start with a 20 gauge since you can still use .600 round balls for deer. As for shot 1 1/4 oz shot works real well.