Brown Bess info needed

[Mark Lynch]

Hi Guys, I'm not new to ball blowers by any means, but I am new to rock chuckers. I just built two but still don't know much about them let alone this peice.......

Heres the problem....I have a bud that just got his hands on a springfield repro brown bess. She is in very good shape outside of some little surface rust which is nearly gone now. (will be before it hits the range)

Our next issue is what size ball is needed and powder charges. We plan to take his and my flinters out to see if sir buck or maddaam doe can handle the noise in one week, so time is of the essence for the bessie.

I plan to order a few balls and several flints, I'll give him some pillow ticking for patching. I alredy know that the frizzen is 1 1/16 wide so a 1 1/8 flint is called for....its the rest of the info I'm needing.

Thanks for all the help.....Mark

 

[Grenadier1758]

You did right to measure the width of the frizzen to determine the size of the flint that you will need. I am not sure what the bore size of the Springfield replica of the brown bess measures. You should measure the bore and then it will be much easier to offer ball size suggestions.

My Long Land Pattern Bess from Loyalist Arms has a bore diameter of 0.770". I use a 0.715" ball. My patching is either paper from a rolled cartridge or 0.017" thick cotton drill. The Lubrication actually holds the ball in place the short time before I fire. This is the combination I used in my Pedersoli Bess that had a 0.750" bore.

The ball used in a musket is often very much smaller than bore size for ease of loading. What is often surprising, is that they perform fairly well. At least when you consider that you are using a smooth bored gun.

Measure your bore and use a ball that is about 0.030" smaller than bore size. Pillow ticking patches of at least 0.015" lubricated with olive oil or other favorite lube should work as a starting load.

 

[Mark Lynch]

Thanks for the fast reply! I'll have the gun in my hands by dark tonight to spec it out. I got the "frizzen measurment over the phone"....I had no idea that the bessies had several bore dia. I'm much more familliar with mountain era or kentucky period rifles.

(this is one of those sudden and quick Best-freind challenges that simply must be met)

My pillow ticking is .018 on average and is the same I've used for years in rifles....I'm sure it will do the job well.

Is there a quick rule of thumb for powder requirements? (won't have much time to work anything up other than knowing where its shooting) I'll be using goex FF for the charge with FFFF in the pan unless told to do otherwise.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I don't know anything particular about the Springfield. Take all sorts of precautions getting started. First of all make sure that it is a replica of an English Land Pattern musket or is it a replical of the US 1795 musket. A simple test is if the musket has barrel bands it is likely the US version of the French Charleville. Regardless, measure the bore! Before you load it up verify that it will spark properly. These military muskets with the large flints will work fine with the same powder in the pan as used in the charge. 2fg is fine and of course 4fg works fine as well. Touch of a few pan with no charge in the bore to see if it will ignite the pan. Run a pick through the touch hole to see if the hole is clear. And also just for grins, try a blank load of 50 to 80 grains of 2f to see if the pan lights off the main charge. If it won't set off a charge now it certainly won't set one off with a ball down the barrel.

Start shooting with light loads! Pour a charge of powder down the bore. Use the ramrod to measure the height of the charge. You don't want to have to deal with a small charge allowing the ball to be seated at the touch hole and block the flame from the charge. You want a first charge to be just enough to hold the ball ahead of the touch hole. If you have any doubts, STOP! Get the gun checked out by a gunsmith!

I wish you the best of luck. But use caution to make sure that you don't rely on luck. Safety first.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Always measure the bore of any ML gun you shoot. With rifles, measure the groove diameter so you can determine the groove depth for each gun. That is important in both choosing the diameter of the ball to use, but also the patching to use. In a smoothbore, the diameter is critical to determining the correct ball diameter to use, as well as the correct patching. That .018" patch may be too tight in this gun, with the balls you have on hand. You don't need to use 4Fg powder for the prime. Use the same powder you put down the barrel. Start at about 70 grains of FFg, and work up from there. You want to be sure that the flint sparks off the frizzen, and that requires the flint to fit, and the frizzen to be both hardened properly, and open freely. The springs on these replicas are often bears, and that unnecessary energy breaks up flints in a few strikes. At more than a $1 per flint, that can make shooting very expensive.

Are you just going to be shooting blanks as a re-enactor, or are you actually going to use this gun to shoot targets and to hunt? Are you going to make up paper cartridges and load the bess the traditional way of the soldier? Or are you going to use a cloth patch and round ball to actually try to hit something out to 50-70 yds.

Let us know, and good shooting. Its always exciting to start out with any new gun.

Paul

 

[Mark Lynch]

Well guys heres the deal....its a .750 bore, without bands. The gun is in fine shape other than the RR is missing. From my limited experience it looks very similar to the Pedersoli offering from Dixi Gun Works.

Looks and measures up identical except the frizzen is wider. This one measures up to 1.20 @ the widest point.

The gun was used by a re-inactor up to 30 years ago and it sparks and fires squibs fine.....its just that the origional owner never put a real load down it, and I never shot a smoothie before.

What I need is a little guidance as to what to put down her....a place to get a RR..... and I can handle the rest.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Rebel]

If you have a .750 bore and want to use a patched rd ball or paper catridges i would suggest a .715 rd ball mould. You should be able to get the mould, some 1" or 1 1/8" Black English flints, .11 ga wads, and a ramrod from Track Of The Wolf.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

It may sound overly simplistic, or even silly, but the first thing I do when I get a used muzzleloader is check to make sure it's UNLOADED! I probably don't have to tell you this, but s*!+ happens.

Have fun, and be safe.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Careful that if you choose a flint wider or as wide as the frizzen that it doesn't gouge the barrel. I use a flint no wider than my frizzens.

Dixie Gun Works may have a suitable rammer. You'll probably have to settle for a Japanese or Italian reproduction rammer - may be worth a phone call with the barrel length and any makers' marks on the barrel (Did Springfield make repro Besses?) They are threaded for a worm and, most likely, it will be a metric thread. You might want to order the attachments you want/need at the same time.

Enjoy.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If I were in your shoes, I would also order a range rod made of stainless steel, or brass, Those steel rods that go in the stock are nice to look at, but the quality sometimes leaves much to be desired. The other thing about a range rod is that you can get fittings with American thread sizes, so you can replace them when needed. TOTW can set you up. So can Dixie GW. Or Log Cabin, or Cains. You have been given some good loading data to use to begin working up a load for this gun. I think you will have fun with it, and some of these can be remarkably good shooters. Its too bad the re-enactors never shoot live ammo. They don't know how much fun they are missing. I saw a man hitting clay targets resting on a board at 50 yds, shooting off-hand, with a bess reproduction. He waa using a relatively light load, and had filed his bayonet lug down so it was a somewhat fat sight, and I later learned that he had filed some grooves in the tang to help him with windage issues as a " rear sight ". I did not get to examine his gun, but saw another Bess a few years later at another even where the owner had done something similar. This second man used his gun to hunt Whitetails, and kept his shots under 50 yds.

 

[Rick Davis]

If I were in your shoes, I would also order a range rod made of stainless steel, or brass, Those steel rods that go in the stock are nice to look at, but...

I second Paul's comments. I made a dedicated expendible range rod. I have a '80s era Pedersoli Bess, and the last time I fired it, I used the rammer that came with it. Some powder residue got on the rod, and subsequently transferred into the ram rod channel bore. I couldn't clean it all out since it had gotten onto the wood in the ramrod channel. For months afterward, I had to clean residue & corrosion off the ram rod.

 

[Mark Lynch]

(OOPS! Wrong forum listing huh.)

Excellent info guys....I already have nearly a dozen range rods I'm covered in that arena. I'm no stranger to black powder guns, built my first @ 18yrs old in "79" and havn't stoped since. Just don't know a thing about bessies.The gun is sound....good condition other than surface rust from being in a closet for nearly 20 or 30 years now, along with a few dust bunnies.....unloaded.....and the flints need to be at least 1 1/8 min. Lots of barrel clearance.

I best guess after looking the gun over that it can't be a springfield....(I was told wrong apparently) But in any case it is a brown bess in fairly good shape for a free-bee.

I'll most likely machine out my own RR but if a good easy to puchace offering was available I'd grab onto it as well. I heard one mention Dixie....I'll check into them and log cabin/Cains.....I frequent their respective sites often.

What sort of load should I be lookin into using.....70gr sound about right?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Check the links under Member resources above on the Main Index. You can link directly to all the providers mentioned. It pays to compare and shop.

Start with 70 grains of Goex FFg powder, with a PRB, and go from there. Since you don't really know the pedigree of the gun, take it easy until you are sure both the metal and the wood will take stouter loads. You will hve to measure that bore to determine proper ball and conical, diameters. TOTW sells balls by the bag, and is a good way to find out what your gun likes before investing in a mold. Smiling Fox Forge makes a nice traditional ball mould, in many calibers. I would buy and try different sized conicals before investing in a mould to make my own. You are going to have real recoil forces at work shooting any conical, so take it easy on yourself. You are shooting a freight train, and it doesn't have to be going very fast to plow right through moose, Elk, Mule Deer, or any other large game at open sight ranges. A 492 Grain round ball is going to mushroom out to more than 80 caliber, and push through just about any bone and tissue grown on earth. Only if I were contemplating shooting elephants, or Rhino, would I be thinking about either a hard alloy round ball, or a conical for that gun.

 

[Mark Lynch]

Ahhhhhhhh, no......Whitail deer are plenty enough target for the near future.

Conicals and such are no problem for me since I own 4 swagging machines, but I don't think this gun will ever see any of my boolets....perhaps a ball or two but no hardcast needed.

Track of the Wolf is where I found the bags and flints I was thinking of getting.

I am having a problem with the thoughts of shooting such a loose fitting ball out of a .750 bore. (.719-.720ish) I'm so use to a rifle, that a .030 undersized ball unerves me a bit. Won't a .020 undersize be a bit more accurate?

 

[paulvallandigham]

NOt really. Remember this huge ball is pure lead, and will upset, or " obturate ", when the powder hits it. A .020 patch will fill the sides of the ball between the ball and the barrel.

Remember also that in a rifle, we talk about the diameter of the ball in relation to the bore diameter. BUT, the bore diameter is the diameter across the lands. You still have the groove depth to fill. Depending on the caliber, and maker, those grooves may be up to .012" deep, although .008 is more typical. Compare that depth to a modern barrel for cartridge ammo, where the groove depth may only be .002- .004" deep.

When you choose a patch for a smoothbore, you are basing your choice, as if you were measuring the groove diameter on a rifle. A rifle's grooves allow there to be some place for extra material to compres, and go into. On a smoothbore, you have no place to tuck extra material. So, a ball that is .715 in diameter in a .750 barrel, leaves a scant .035" for the patching. Divide that by two, since you have to allow for the patch thickness on both sides of your ball, and you have room for a compressed, .017-.018" patch. Most of the material sold as .020" thick patches will compress at least that much. The accuracy of that gun will depend more on how clean and polished the bore is, and the condition of the muzzle. If the muzzle is square to the bore, the ball will be released with equal pressure on all sides, and it will fly consistently.

 

[Rebel]

With a smoothbore you don't have any grooves for the patching to go into, so you need to use a more undersized ball in order to load them without excessive force on the ramrod.

 

[Mark Lynch]

Ok guys, I still need to finish cleaning up the gun and either purchase or make a RR but the .715 balls/flints, and pillow ticking are enroute.

I think she will shoot just fine. Thanks for all the help! This is the first smoothie that I've laid my hands on other than a REAL bess made in 1776, owned by the same fella that this one came from. He,(don't know his name) loaned us, (bud and I) the origional only long enough to use as a display at a 4-H benefit last spring.