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Brown Bess? Is this what I think it is?

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Sound advice.

Has anyone heard of a case recently where upon an old original blew up or apart by some one who did not know any better?
I have not. Only ones I've seen fail are from them being loaded wrong.

I have not, BUT ONLY because I found between half a dozen and a dozen original military flintlock muskets ("sporterized" or not) over the years where the breech threads had "rotted out" (corrosion) and/or found corrosion too deep in the breech area to trust, so I CONDEMNED those muskets from ever being fired again.

Gus
 
I have not, BUT ONLY because I found between half a dozen and a dozen original military flintlock muskets ("sporterized" or not) over the years where the breech threads had "rotted out" (corrosion) and/or found corrosion too deep in the breech area to trust, so I CONDEMNED those muskets from ever being fired again.

Gus
Just out of interest Gus, how difficult were they to unscrew compared to a sound one?

Nathan.
 
Just out of interest Gus, how difficult were they to unscrew compared to a sound one?

Nathan.

Well, if they required more effort than what I thought good to use, I would soak them inside and out for a week in penetrating oil before I would go further, that loosened up the worst of them so I didn't have to use too much force.

Gus
 
On the OP's musket, what bothers me a good deal is even with my eyes that often don't pick up some things in the linked pics, I can SEE areas of the outside of the breech that have been filed/sanded heavily (around the wedding bands) and the flat spot that all but wiped out the touch mark over the view mark.

Further, and ESPECIALLY with original Brown Besses of this period, you should ALWAYS carefully measure the outside of the barrel from the breech and going forward about 12 inches. I'm talking using at least a precision set of dial calipers if not micrometers, btw. Then compare that with measurement tolerances found in Bailey's Books AND especially look for areas on the top to bottom of the barrel to see if it does or does not agree with measurements taken from the sides of the barrel in the same places. OK, so why is that necessary?

Different Regimental Commanders paid for engraving on the tops of the barrels to identify the Regiments Muskets. It was COMMON practice for British Ordnance to FILE down the tops of the barrels to remove this engraving, which sometimes was fairly deep, before they reissued the muskets or barrels. Now they DID re-proof the barrels, BUT EVEN SO, a fair number of those musket barrels during the period were known to have BURST on active duty. Even if they didn't burst then, corrosion inside the barrel today might cause an already thinned section to be TOO THIN to stand up to modern shooting.

Gus
 
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Unfortunately in the following pic, though it shows the "Touch" Mark and "View" Mark and another mark to the left, the Touch Mark area of the barrel has been filed so we only see a P over a broad arrow. The View Mark has enough of the Crown over crossed scepters, but I'm not sure if that is a star or what's left of a crown or something else over what looks like a "JW."

View attachment 102899



How long is the barrel right now and what size is the bore?

The lock is a 1755 Pattern used on 1756 Pattern Arms up until 1777 pattern arms, because there is a single screw showing behind the Cock (Hammer). Since it has the Crown and Cypher ahead of the Cock, it's definitely British Ordnance (Government) accepted. Willets is either the lock maker or overall contractor and the lock's date of 1762 does make it early enough for the entire Revolutionary War.

Gus
Ahhhhh I have one like this but it was a brass barrelled blunderbuss. I bid at auction £32. 1973 a lot of money then. Only to find it was a tourist bit of rubbish. You live and learn its probably made in India. The lock on the bench is the manure lock and the one in the stock I am Building is a genuine Bess lock around 1910. Earlier ones have a swan like cock. All the brass on your gun is identical to my blunderbuss. I scrapped it for bits . The stock looks like my blunderbuss too. It went on the log burner Such is life. I wish you well
 

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I am confused by the last post re brass blunder buss fakes as to how relavant it is to the musket concerned . Could be I missed some thing Though I do recall the ' dodgy ' fake blunderbusses & the Indian' look alikes' though not seemingly related .. but pure wall decore ones if I never saw a. completed one they probably where some .
Rudyard
 
I would consider inspecting the weapon and not fire it, just preserve it. One has to know the methods of metallurgy back in the day to fully understand the prospects of ruining the weapon.
 
I am confused by the last post re brass blunder buss fakes as to how relavant it is to the musket concerned . Could be I missed some thing Though I do recall the ' dodgy ' fake blunderbusses & the Indian' look alikes' though not seemingly related .. but pure wall decore ones if I never saw a. completed one they probably where some .
Rudyard
Sorry I looked at this so called Bess in detail and every part was exactly as this fake Indian made blunderbuss It concerns me that this poor guy might try to use it and a serious catastrophe might occur, One must be cautious with the rubbish that is floating around. For 20 years I have been studying guns at the massive Holts London auction. Stuf like the above usually goes in the sealed bid buyer beware I know what’s good and what’s bad. We come across these things in the forums occasionally. Kindest regards from London
 
I want to thank everyone for their opinions and suggestions.

Thanks especially to Artificer for having a look at the barrel markings and clarifying what they mean.

I will not be restoring this, because in the first place I am a total amateur and don’t even have time to build a muzzleloader from a kit, let alone fix cracks, splice wood, and all the other things necessary to put this gun back to issue trim. Secondly I rather agree with Rudyard that the modifications made are a part of its history (and indeed vouch for the gun’s authenticity even if they simultaneously decrease its value) and really there’s no need… I have an India made LLP Bess I bought on here a couple years ago which looks the part, so I really feel no need to go restoring this one, beyond preservation and just enough to make sure the gun is in functional condition.

I’d love to shoot this some day… will definitely try to find a good local smith and have him check out the percussion drum, breech, stock, and bore first. It doesn’t look unsafe but, better safe than sorry.

Any thoughts on the best way to dismount the barrel from stock to check condition under the wood?
 
I sent you a pm

I want to thank everyone for their opinions and suggestions.

Thanks especially to Artificer for having a look at the barrel markings and clarifying what they mean.

I will not be restoring this, because in the first place I am a total amateur and don’t even have time to build a muzzleloader from a kit, let alone fix cracks, splice wood, and all the other things necessary to put this gun back to issue trim. Secondly I rather agree with Rudyard that the modifications made are a part of its history (and indeed vouch for the gun’s authenticity even if they simultaneously decrease its value) and really there’s no need… I have an India made LLP Bess I bought on here a couple years ago which looks the part, so I really feel no need to go restoring this one, beyond preservation and just enough to make sure the gun is in functional condition.

I’d love to shoot this some day… will definitely try to find a good local smith and have him check out the percussion drum, breech, stock, and bore first. It doesn’t look unsafe but, better safe than sorry.

Any thoughts on the best way to dismount the barrel from stock to check condition under the wood?
 
Any thoughts on the best way to dismount the barrel from stock to check condition under the wood?

Hi SirFrancis,

Thanks for the kind words.

The Barrels on the King's Muskets were held to the stock normally by three, but sometimes four pins that went through barrel lugs dovetailed and soldered to the bottom of the barrel, when the stock was full length as originally made. (There also was a screw that went through the forward part of the forearm and through a special heavier barrel lug to support the front sling swivel. In this case since that part of the forearm was cut off, you don't have to remove that screw. However, I wanted to mention this for those whose stock is still full length and they also need to dismount a barrel.)

For speed, economy and it seems for esthetics in the period; they just snipped/cut off the ends of the pins and filed them flush with the surface of the stock wood, when the "stockers" mounted the barrel when new. The problem with that both then and now is trying to "start" a pin to move when attempting to drive out these pins, because the ends on both sides of the stock were so heavily curved. This is why on both original and repro Brown Bess muskets, you often see the wood around the pins "wallowed out" because of the difficulty of using a flat end pin punch to drive the very rounded ends of the pins out and is a sure sign the barrel was removed sometime in the Musket's life.

The following small section of one of your pics shows the "wallowed out" wood around what appears to be the only barrel pin left and is above the rear half of the brass entry pipe.

1636326991404.png


Here is the full pic of yours from which I captured the smaller pic above,
1636327145910.png


NORMALLY what British Military Artificers/Armorers did after the finally got those gosh darned curved ended pins out, was file them flat and perpendicular to the length of the pin and very slightly chamfered the now sharp edges around the diameter of the pin, so it was easier the NEXT time someone had to drive them out and remove the barrel. So I hope that is true in the case of your musket.

HOWEVER, this is not to say there may not be another pin or two that was ADDED to what is left of the forearm, long ago when the stock was shortened. I can't see the rest of the forearm well enough to rule that out, though I don't see what appears to be another pin or two on your forearm added when they shortened the stock. So you should examine the forearm closely in case they did add one or more pins after they shortened the stock.

Once you have driven the barrel pin or pins out, then remove the "Iron Rammer" and unscrew the the screw on the tang, that is shown in this pic at the bottom of tang, and remove it vertically from the stock.

1636327756855.png



HUGELY IMPORTANT WARNING on removing that screw. You MUST have a "Turnscrew" or Screw Driver blade that fits that screw slot VERY accurately in width and at least close to the length of that screw slot, or you will bugger up that screw head even more than what was already done. One of the specialty Brownells or other Gunsmith Screwdriver Bits MAY fit it well, but if not, you will need to grind/file a screwdriver tip to match this slot.

ALSO, expect that screw to be a bit difficult to begin to turn as it may be rusted in place and/or difficult to begin to turn for other reasons.

With that screw removed, you put the hammer on half cock (to clear the percussion nipple) and turn the musket upside down and hold the barrel while you tap the rear of the stock on your thigh (while you are sitting down), so the barrel comes loose and not cause damage to the stock by hitting it on a hard surface.

Gus
 
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OK, I wanted to add something further about dismounting stocks on original Muskets, as to what it WILL do to lower the value of original muskets. In most cases on original Muskets, I VERY STRONGLY ADVISE most people NOT to do it!!! This because if it hasn't been done before and even if you expertly do it and not "wallow out the wood" around the pins, you are needlessly damaging an original musket unless you have to do some stock or barrel repair that requires it.

Gus
 
OH, in the past I've written about how to do the LEAST damage to the stocks on Original and Repro Brown Bess Muskets when you have to drive the barrel pins out. Not sure if that info survived when we switched over from the old to this new forum. I'll see if I can find it, if anyone is interested.

Gus
 
The right man confidently skilled enough to restore it fully with No other option. Save leave it be as an' evolved gun' . Meaning it wasn't recently vandalised or ' Bubba ed' (No offence to any reader who's called Bubba ) Since the alterations wretched as we might think them 'are a valid part of the guns long history.
.Which was the view of a noted Rev war ' student of arms' Herman Benninghoff I had some dealings with. Wether it could be shot or not is a mundane matter quite apart from the ethical aspect. It is what could be called an 'important piece' that it came cheap shouldn't alter that.
Im'e sorry if I come across as too academic on this .I did work for museums.
Regards Rudyard
Wait a minute, I was born in Alabama and there is a state law that the first born son must be named Bubba !
 
Don't worry Mr Carter you can get counciling nowadays . There is also a Bubba's anonimous I understand. (But not very much as Ive just invented them!). It s not so much Who's called Bubba just what a mess they reputedly make of old guns .Old anything .I don't suppose thier too picky .
Yours in jest
Regards Rudyard
 
Good morning from London. I have been studying this lock plate and bugger me it does look genuine but the brass the other side does not. I sincerely do hope I am wrong and this piece is genuine I make up guns out of bits, like others, so who knows what people will think in a few hundred years. Great fun I wish you well On eBay uk. 1810 genuine locks occasionally come up at around £240 You never see barrels though
 
IF the Pedersoli Bess with "Grice 1762" is incorrect as by that time the locks for the LLP's were marked "Tower", and the SLP was not yet produced...., then how come "Willets 1762" is not also incorrect ???
🤔

LD

According to Goldstein’s book Grice and Willits made long land 1755 pattern locks between 1758 and 1762.

The 1769 Shorland pattern bess which is what pedersoli calls their bess, would have a locked marked tower to be considered correct.

Personally I think this detail is overdrawn for its significance, not many known the history of the Brown Bess in such finite details, other than enthusiasts But I’ve known people who will pay up to $200 to have the lockplate welded over and reengraved For 150-300$.

For a little while there was a guy casting copies of the Lockplate with it marked tower.
 

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