Brown Bess kit

[dave_person]

Hi NJRanger,
Thank you for that information! I assume Lexington1's musket must be somewhat rare because I believe many of those NJ commercial muskets were lost at Sabbath's Day Point on Lake George. I based some of the sheet brass components on my musket on artifacts found in the wreck of the Boscawen in Lake Champlain.

dave

 

[TNBandit]

Here is a Nicholson East India Company Bess dated 1779 that was owned by my 7th generation Grandfather who was Sgt Seth Brooks of the Acton Mass Minutemen. He was at the Concord bridge April 19, 1775. Obviously not with this particular musket which was made 4 years later. And another EIC Bess also 1779 this one Griffin & Tow once owned by Samuel Farrar which is unconverted. Both are still in my family. The bayonet is also dated 1779. There have been a lot of East India Company muskets from Massachusetts that have turned up, all dated 1779 and it's believed they came from a captured trading ship that was taken that year. The provenance on these 2 is set in stone. They have been handed down in my family for 7 generations.

 

[njranger]

Hi NJRanger,
Thank you for that information! I assume Lexington1's musket must be somewhat rare because I believe many of those NJ commercial muskets were lost at Sabbath's Day Point on Lake George. I based some of the sheet brass components on my musket on artifacts found in the wreck of the Boscawen in Lake Champlain.

dave
[/QUOT

New Jersey ordered muskets on definitely two and possibly three different occasions right before and during the French and Indian War. Our research shows that possibly 500 were bought in 1747, but we are totally unsure of that order. Then another 500 in 1755/56 for arming the NJ Provincial Regiment. There are one or two of these around with assorted parts found in the 1960's at Sabbath Day Point on Lake George. This was the site of the Sabbath Day Point massacre in 1757 right before the Battle of Ft. William Henry . These have no thumbpieces and wooden rammers. The one that Lexington1 has is one of 2000 stands of arms bought in 1758 for the county militia regiments. There are a few of these around. One is in the Museum of the American Revolution in Philly. Bill Ahearn's Muskets of the Revolution has a couple of them and I believe Don Troaini has one too. Some of he militia muskets are issued out of stores during the Revolution from what we can tell.

Cheers,

njranger

 

[lexington1]

That is really great information. I had a fair idea from reading Ahearn's book and other sources about the Wilson NJ muskets, but had no idea really about the 1758 contracts. Awesome stuff. Thanks!

 

[FlinterNick]

I agree with Dave in regards to the early Long Long land Brown Bess’s being more comfortable to shoot. My 1742 track bess has much more drop my pedersoli bess and use it more often. Im currently building a 1756 long land, The pre-carved stock so far for me is comfortable to handle i think because of my physical build, orrr the rifle shoppe copied a 1755 stock that was improved. I tend to struggle with guns like the 1816 with no comb, i have to really bend my neck down.

 

[bjarard]

Hi,
The Rifle Shoppe parts sets provide the most options for historically correct Besses. I am not crazy about their precarved stocks and usually build from a blank using their cast parts. Before diving into owning a Bess, it is wise to think about what you want it for. If you want it for reenacting or as a historically correct addition to your collection you will want to understand the different patterns and time frames. If you want a gun for shooting or hunting, then you may want to stick with the earlier patterns (pre 1756) because they tend to have more drop at the heel and shoulder better. Later patterns are straighter and often hard to fit for aiming properly. If you want a good shooting or hunting gun consider building a colonial restock of a short land pattern Bess. That way you can have a shorter and lighter gun but create a historically correct stock that fits you well for shooting. Here is a long land pattern example using parts salvaged from an early British commercial musket by Wilson. It is much better fitting than the ordnance issued guns. With respect to your initial question about TOW's kit, it is an ealry pattern Bess and is a pretty good kit. However, beware of the plans they sell for it. The dimensions are about 10% too large in width and height and I suspect they copied someone's reproduction not an original gun. Also I question the lock markings "Willets 1746" because in my references, he does not show up as a contractor until 1762.

dave

Just found this on a search. Where did the wilson lock come from. Was it a pedersoli that was smoothed out of all markings and then engraved? I've been looking to convert a Peder' into a Wilson. Also, I've seen Wilson's in collections with wooden rammers. Can the pedersoli stock's entry hole be plugged, the channel enlarged and deepened, and then a new 3/8 hole drilled? Is there enought room to deepen the channel without the lugs interfereing with the rammer?? Thanks

 

[dave_person]

Hi BJarard,
Yes, you could turn a Pedersoli into something a bit closer to a Wilson commercial musket. The lock on the musket I showed was from an early pattern Brown Bess. I filed off the contractor name and all the other marks and also made the plate a little smaller. Then I engraved "Wilson" on the plate. It is a pretty good match to some of the earlier Wilson commercial muskets. The difficulty with the Pedersoli lock is the cast in engraving is deep. I find I have to weld metal over it otherwise the plate gets filed too thin, particularly along the edges as you get rid of the border lines. However, it can be done. You could make a large ramrod hole for a wood rammer but you have to be very careful when doing that. The larger drill tends to split the stock rather than open up the hole so the drill must be very sharp and preferably have a pretty blunt or obtuse angle on the front so it doesn't wedge easily. The ramrod channel can easily be widened and deepened. Don't worry about the barrel lugs. Pedersoli leaves way too much wood between the barrel and ramrod groove. However, you will have to install new pipes for the wood rod and they will go deeper in the stock. I think a proper butt plate could be fitted but the Pedersoli stock is too small in the butt because the butt plate is 3/8" - 1/2" too short compared with originals. So you could make a presentable copy of a Wilson commercial gun but it would not look completely right. Here are 3 links to threads about reworking Pedersoli Brown Besses.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-pedersoli-brown-bess-kit.147669/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...nto-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave










reposition the pipes deeper and

 

[bjarard]

Hi BJarard,
Yes, you could turn a Pedersoli into something a bit closer to a Wilson commercial musket. The lock on the musket I showed was from an early pattern Brown Bess. I filed off the contractor name and all the other marks and also made the plate a little smaller. Then I engraved "Wilson" on the plate. It is a pretty good match to some of the earlier Wilson commercial muskets. The difficulty with the Pedersoli lock is the cast in engraving is deep. I find I have to weld metal over it otherwise the plate gets filed too thin, particularly along the edges as you get rid of the border lines. However, it can be done. You could make a large ramrod hole for a wood rammer but you have to be very careful when doing that. The larger drill tends to split the stock rather than open up the hole so the drill must be very sharp and preferably have a pretty blunt or obtuse angle on the front so it doesn't wedge easily. The ramrod channel can easily be widened and deepened. Don't worry about the barrel lugs. Pedersoli leaves way too much wood between the barrel and ramrod groove. However, you will have to install new pipes for the wood rod and they will go deeper in the stock. I think a proper butt plate could be fitted but the Pedersoli stock is too small in the butt because the butt plate is 3/8" - 1/2" too short compared with originals. So you could make a presentable copy of a Wilson commercial gun but it would not look completely right. Here are 3 links to threads about reworking Pedersoli Brown Besses.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-pedersoli-brown-bess-kit.147669/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...nto-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave










reposition the pipes deeper and

Thanks Dave, great info. I think if I do this I'll plug the hole witha wood dowel...then redrill. hopefully that will reduce splintering.

 

[bjarard]

Hi BJarard,
Yes, you could turn a Pedersoli into something a bit closer to a Wilson commercial musket. The lock on the musket I showed was from an early pattern Brown Bess. I filed off the contractor name and all the other marks and also made the plate a little smaller. Then I engraved "Wilson" on the plate. It is a pretty good match to some of the earlier Wilson commercial muskets. The difficulty with the Pedersoli lock is the cast in engraving is deep. I find I have to weld metal over it otherwise the plate gets filed too thin, particularly along the edges as you get rid of the border lines. However, it can be done. You could make a large ramrod hole for a wood rammer but you have to be very careful when doing that. The larger drill tends to split the stock rather than open up the hole so the drill must be very sharp and preferably have a pretty blunt or obtuse angle on the front so it doesn't wedge easily. The ramrod channel can easily be widened and deepened. Don't worry about the barrel lugs. Pedersoli leaves way too much wood between the barrel and ramrod groove. However, you will have to install new pipes for the wood rod and they will go deeper in the stock. I think a proper butt plate could be fitted but the Pedersoli stock is too small in the butt because the butt plate is 3/8" - 1/2" too short compared with originals. So you could make a presentable copy of a Wilson commercial gun but it would not look completely right. Here are 3 links to threads about reworking Pedersoli Brown Besses.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-pedersoli-brown-bess-kit.147669/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...nto-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave










reposition the pipes deeper and

with some grinding of the brass on the butt plate back side could a long land butt plate be retrofitted to a Peder Bess? The issue, I imagine, is the top tang of the LL sligthly larger than the inlet of the Peder SL Bess top tang...and therefore could be re-inletted. It would have to be larger all over the top tang as you wouldn't want any wood filler up there.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The biggest problem is the Pedersoli stock and butt plate are too small in the butt.
This shows a Pedersoli stock with an accurate casting of an original Bess butt plate placed on it.

The Wilson commercial plates were more simply shaped but still as tall as the Besses.

It is hard to make a Pedersoli Bess look authentic for any historical musket. It may be closest to the Liege contract muskets made during the Rev War.

dave

 

[bjarard]

Hi,
The biggest problem is the Pedersoli stock and butt plate are too small in the butt.
This shows a Pedersoli stock with an accurate casting of an original Bess butt plate placed on it.

The Wilson commercial plates were more simply shaped but still as tall as the Besses.

It is hard to make a Pedersoli Bess look authentic for any historical musket. It may be closest to the Liege contract muskets made during the Rev War.

dave

Thanks Dave,
Could the LL butt plate be ground down in the rear to match the existing rear...and would the tang cover the existing inlet on top so it can be re-inletted?? they're $36 so it wouldn't be a great loss if it didn't work out...without touching any wood.

 

[FlinterNick]

with some grinding of the brass on the shoulder rear-side could a long land butt plate be retrofitted to a Peder Bess? The issue I imagine would the top tang of the LL be sligthly larger than the inlet of the Peder SL Bess to tang...and therefore could be re-inletted. It would have to be larger all over the top tang as you wouldn't want any wood filler up there.

Hi,
The biggest problem is the Pedersoli stock and butt plate are too small in the butt.
This shows a Pedersoli stock with an accurate casting of an original Bess butt plate placed on it.

The Wilson commercial plates were more simply shaped but still as tall as the Besses.

It is hard to make a Pedersoli Bess look authentic for any historical musket. It may be closest to the Liege contract muskets made during the Rev War.

dave

Hi Dave,

I’ve seen a few folks attempt to fit a long land butt plate to a Miroku or Pedersoli Bess, the outcome was not so great. With the tang being so long it ends up taking away too much wood on an already smaller butt stock and to add it also requires the heal to be filed and peened to be blended in. Not an easy task.

The back area and toe were file down to fit the butt stock however the plate’s thickness tapers outward, so it ended up being slightly thinner on the edges.

Personally I think the Bess’s you showed us that used the existing butt plate with just adding a pin makes it much more cost effective and easier and accurate.

 

[bjarard]

Hi Dave,

I’ve seen a few folks attempt to fit a long land butt plate to a Miroku or Pedersoli Bess, the outcome was not so great. With the tang being so long it ends up taking away too much wood on an already smaller butt stock and to add it also requires the heal to be filed and peened to be blended in. Not an easy task.

The back area and toe were file down to fit the butt stock however the plate’s thickness tapers outward, so it ended up being slightly thinner on the edges.

Personally I think the Bess’s you showed us that used the existing butt plate with just adding a pin makes it much more cost effective and easier and accurate.

excellent advise...I'll think I'll leave as is. Thanks!

 

[bjarard]

Hi BJarard,
Yes, you could turn a Pedersoli into something a bit closer to a Wilson commercial musket. The lock on the musket I showed was from an early pattern Brown Bess. I filed off the contractor name and all the other marks and also made the plate a little smaller. Then I engraved "Wilson" on the plate. It is a pretty good match to some of the earlier Wilson commercial muskets. The difficulty with the Pedersoli lock is the cast in engraving is deep. I find I have to weld metal over it otherwise the plate gets filed too thin, particularly along the edges as you get rid of the border lines. However, it can be done. You could make a large ramrod hole for a wood rammer but you have to be very careful when doing that. The larger drill tends to split the stock rather than open up the hole so the drill must be very sharp and preferably have a pretty blunt or obtuse angle on the front so it doesn't wedge easily. The ramrod channel can easily be widened and deepened. Don't worry about the barrel lugs. Pedersoli leaves way too much wood between the barrel and ramrod groove. However, you will have to install new pipes for the wood rod and they will go deeper in the stock. I think a proper butt plate could be fitted but the Pedersoli stock is too small in the butt because the butt plate is 3/8" - 1/2" too short compared with originals. So you could make a presentable copy of a Wilson commercial gun but it would not look completely right. Here are 3 links to threads about reworking Pedersoli Brown Besses.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/a-pedersoli-brown-bess-kit.147669/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...nto-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/new-reworking-a-pedersoli-brown-bess.107405/
dave










reposition the pipes deeper and

One other thing that you may have expertise in. I've got the LL thimbles and 3/8 rod. After deepening the channel and redrilling the RR hole...will the new 3/8 rod run smack dab into the front lock bolt. I hadn't considered this before (head smack emoji). If it just "nicks" then one can taper the rod or file a small concave area in bolt...but it its a big obstacle...then I'd say it's a non-starter for this conversion. Thoughts? thanks

 

[FlinterNick]

One other thing that you may have expertise in. I've got the LL thimbles and 3/8 rod. After deepening the channel and redrilling the RR hole...will the new 3/8 rod run smack dab into the front lock bolt. I hadn't considered this before (head smack emoji). If it just "nicks" then one can taper the rod or file a small concave area in bolt...but it its a big obstacle...then I'd say it's a non-starter for this conversion. Thoughts? thanks

I’d taper the rod as much as possible from from 1/4 to 5/16 to 3/8 at the tip, making the end skinnier will help avoid the lock bolt. It really depends on how straight that ramrod hole is to begin with.

While the stock can be drilled don’t for a 3/8 rod, you’re really pushing the pedersoli stock to its limits, pedersoli stocks are a 7/8 scale Brown Bess… NOT really a Brown Bess by definition.

The stock isn’t a full sized Brown Bess to begin with, so those 3/8 pipes were designed for a long land bess which did not have a slender forestock (not slender like a pedersoli) the forearm had enough wood to accommodate both a wooden rod and the 3/8 pipes which I’m not certain but were i think were closer to 7/16’s and a very large .77 caliber barrel.

Another option … I’d get parts for a light infantry fusil 1740 or 1760 pattern from the rifle shoppe, they would fit the pedersoli stock much better, as they were designed to be a much smaller scale long land, you wont have as much wood to remove.

I tend to be more on the conservative side of reworking a pedersoli, either restock it with an appropriate stock for the parts you want or leave it be, its never going to be an accurate representation of a Brown Bess. It could be a marine musket, contract musket militia musket, commitiie of safety but never really a long land or short land or even a third model.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Nick has given you good advice. You can also turn the center part of the shaft of the bolt down thinner so the rod clears. Strength is not much of an issue with the bolt and it can be turned thinner quite a bit. One trick is to turn the bolt just enough so it puts a little pressure on the rod helping to hold it in place. If you do that, keep in mind, you have to pull the rod out a little way when removing the forward lock bolt. That is not much of an issue as long as you remember to do it.

dave

 

[Rifleman1776]

This thread has given a great deal of really valuable information re: the Brown Bess. Pay close heed to what other have said, especially Dave Persons.
And, what he said about that lock bolt is spot on. I have seen a number of rifles, old and recent made, that had that lock bolt ground down in the center to accommodate the rod.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I believe that Kit Ravenshear published a pamphlet on the application of 1st model parts to a Pedersoli Second Model to give the Pedersoli an appearance sort of like a First Model. There may even be an old thread out in the ether of the internet.

Didn't find it in my search for books by Kit Ravenshear.

 

[FlinterNick]

Dave’s demo on refurbishing a Brown Bess is really the best working example of how accurate a pedersoli can be with limitations.

Dave’s demo on restocking a pedersoli Brown Bess is the best choice for investing in new brass parts such as a butt plate triggerguard, and thimbles and side plate. This way your working with the maximum wood intended to fit authentic brass parts. To the stock and not the opposite. I had a chance to actually meet Dave and hold one of his restocking projects, and its very much worth that investment.

 

[FlinterNick]

I believe that Kit Ravenshear published a pamphlet on the application of 1st model parts to a Pedersoli Second Model to give the Pedersoli an appearance sort of like a First Model. There may even be an old thread out in the ether of the internet.

Didn't find it in my search for books by Kit Ravenshear.

Yes Kit did a few conversions of miroku and pedersoli brown Bess’s, it certainly can be done. It really depends on your skill level and knowledge of the Brown Bess.

15 years ago, i probably would have attempted to put a long land butt plate on a pedersoli stock, however knowing what I know today about historical accuracy, I wouldn’t.