Brown bess MVT or Loyalist ?

[kration]

Looking to get my 1st Bess... I've read many of the posts and wanted to get other owner's opinions concerning the Bess carried by MVT and Loyalist..
I am aware of the difference in cost and accessories either included or not included but which gun would you go with in regards to fit - finish and construction?
Kration

 

[nkvd]

Hello Kration

You might want to ask the SCUBA diver in the tree
which "Bess" he preferred? :rotf:

Cheers,Rob

P.S. I appologiz,forum inside joke!

 

[Grenadier1758]

I have a Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern. It is a sound gun and it is sound and a good sparking gun. Mine has the unbridled lock and the wooden rammer of the earlier version.

Other members of the unit have the MVT First Model. This version of the Long Land Pattern has the bridled lock and the steel ramrod. These too seem to be working well too.

The MVT is a bit cheaper than the Loyalist and I recommend the reliability of the steel ram rod especially after I broke my wood rod loading a heavily fouled barrel.

Both will have heavy and not walnut stocks. The stock finish could use some more work to take some of the excess wood off. The fit of the wood to metal is not perfect. The springs are quite strong so they may do a fair ammount of bashing the flint against the frizzen.

I do think they are a fair value for the money, but I do think wither the Loyalist Arms or the Middlesex Village Traders are the best choice since these are actually built to be fired with the touch holes drilled and the locks verified for sparking. That doesn't mean that they won't need work.

Don't get the third model Those versions were made for trade in India and other than some that may have been in the hands of Santa Ana's army, didn't see service in the Americas.

 

[Parzifal]

I have the loyalist first mod transitional mod, It has a bridaled frizzen / steel rammer and a brass nose cap.
It has been fired countless times, and is superior in performance to my piedersoli in every way.

Mine was purchased as one of their unfinished damaged kits in their specials section.

After a bunch of work "fun for me" it is the better of any musket I have seen to date.

Loyalist is really a class act to deal with in my opinion.

I like them alot , they have never done me wrong.

"except that they dont give free muskets for word of mouth advertising"

Rob

 

[Mike Brooks]

Don't waste your money, save it and have one built from Rifle Shoppe parts by a competent American gun builder. Your investment will always increase in value.
Buy American and support America, not some barefoot worker in a 3rd world country.

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Mike is dead on correct. The Indian guns have a method of breaching that may be safe but is nothing like any original or decent to good quality reproduction that I have ever seen and I am not sure that I would want my face or any other part of my body near. As far as reproductions, The Rifle Shoppe first, Pedersoli second and the Indian guns somewhere far away. Yes, the cost will be high for the American and Italian products but the cost of repairing body parts is a lot higher.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

"The MVT is a bit cheaper than the Loyalist and I recommend the reliability of the steel ram rod especially after I broke my wood rod loading a heavily fouled barrel."
If you get a real hickory ramrod, your chances of not breaking it improve dramatically. Many guns (not just the Indian ones) come with ramen rods, which are no better than dowels. A proper hickory rod, used correctly will last indefinitely.

 

[Grenadier1758]

My new ramrod is a hickory rod.

 

[Parzifal]

The Italian guns I have seen and handeled are all either of lower or equal quality to the indian guns I have handeled and seen, mine included, low quality locks, poor stock design and FAR FAR too expensive..

If your dead set on either Italian or American buy the American one, as the Italian one is no different or lesser quality then muskets I have seen from loyalist or middlesex.

I have seen 2 repro besses done from track kits and my loyalist one is by FAR superior in beauty and function "though that could have been due to the builders"

Last time I checked Pete of middlesex IS A AMERICAN if you want to support some one who is one of your countrymen You wouldent be sinning by buying from him.

The rifle shoppe has some AWESOME stuff, Might take you 2 years to get your musket from them though.

I think you wouldent be doing wrong by either Loyalist or middlesexvillage trading, both companys stand by their products.

And as far as the myth of their breeching method,Being unsafe.... I call b.s on that! my muskets are thredded tight and have served me well.

I have heard of 2 muskets exploding so far, one is from a unknown source maybe a indian one, the other is DEFINATLY a piedersoli.

Cheers

 

[Capt. Jas.]

IS A AMERICAN if you want to support some one who is one of your countrymen You wouldent be sinning by buying from him.

Just like WallyWorld huh? :grin:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

And as far as the myth of their breeching method,Being unsafe.... I call b.s on that! my muskets are thredded tight and have served me well.

Robert, a while back (maybe as long as a year ago?) when you were extolling the quality of your Brown Bess's breaching I asked you if you had ever pulled the plug and if you could show some images of the plug and threading in the barrel breach. You never replied. I am assuming now that you have so can you explain it further? What is the pitch and diameter of the threads and are they well cut in barrel and on the plug? I have to admit that it has been over thirty years since I pulled the plug on the Pedersoli Bess that I owned and I have no images but they were well formed and it butted up correctly. With the advent of the internet and digital photography I am hoping to get a good look at one of the Indian breach plugs and breach threads in the barrel. This photo with the sheared off plug from the oddly formed exterior section :shocked2: worries me:

Can you allay my fears? The Italian flint guns (that is those without percussion bolsters) seem to have normally formed plugs.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I remember seeing that picture. Very odd that that funky back part separated from the threaded part. Makes me wonder if they were ever attached. All the Indian guns I've seen are breeched this way, why I don't know. They may have never seen an original and just don't know.

 

[Zoar]

I keep reading about MVT here but I google that and derivations of it and cannot find any company that sells muzzleloaders. What is their actual name ort website?

 

[pcrum]

Middlesex village trading co.

 

[Zoar]

Thank you. Now I know. It seems they use SOME of the same pictures (of their guns at least) that other companies use. Like MilitaryHeritage although their guns have no vent holes.... but same pictures.... hmmmmm.

 

[pichou]

According to the guy who took the picture, the plug is threaded.

I did a little image enhancement to help show the threads.

Let's stick with fact and not assumptions. :wink:
The barrel split beginning near the middle. It split far enough backwards that the plug was released.

 

[nkvd]

Hey Guy's

Seriously we need to get hold of the "Unsolved History" crew to get to the bottom of this "Bess"
mystery! :thumbsup:

Cheers,Rob

 

[bingo1952]

I pulled the breech plug a while back on a Pedersoli Queen Anne pistol that I own and it is breeched in exactly the same manner as the Indian guns are for what that is worth.

 

[Parzifal]

No I never took pictures of the plug thredding, because I had a GUNSMITH check my musket as all the paranoia on this site made me a bit afraid.

My gunsmith told me it was threaded tight / threaded well and guess what I AM GOING WITH HIS WORD..

I am not going to dick around with a wrench and maybe bugger up a fantastic musket.


Yes I extoll the QUALITY of my musket because it is well built "better then the italian ones I have seen" and has served me well, its lock is well built, IF FACT better then any one I have handeled so far.

I may not have answered you last year because as today I see no validity in its opinion.

That gun in the picture there is not a loyalist one.
I know you think every indian gun is the same but that is just not the case.

Just like not all American guns are the same ...Some use chinese/unvented/unproofed barells some don't

Seems to me sensationalists are jumping on this far far too much, and all I have to say is WHO benifits??

If you buy from a reputeable company your not going to have a problem.

And hey if you dont like em FINE ....Go and spend tons of more money for a gun of the same or lesser quality from italy.

You can look down your nose at me because I dont have a 4 thousand dollar musket yet it works just as good and at times better then one.

I will enjoy my Loyalist guns, as will my friends.

And when I can afford it I will send for a pile of American parts and make a musket out of em.
And I bet it will be no better in function then my Indian made Loyalist kit I enjoy so much.

This weekend I am drilling with the regiment and Not a single one of My guys there will even for a moment worry about my gun going south.

This whole thing is just like a Salem witch hunt, full of accousers with no real proof to segrigate some one "or in this case something" I still dont hear the lamentation about the Italian gun that blew up!!
I dont see posts about Piedersoli besses being hijacked to slander them...Yet at this point there record of safety is neck and neck with the indian ones.

At this point guys I am just not going to read any posts about indian guns anymore, Well I might but its kinda starting to bother me, the paranoia some are trying to spout.

as it seems those of us that want to talk about how we love shooting our guns are forever harassed by the witch hunters looking for something to burn on the pyre of there high falootin scrutiny.

In closing,
I support Loyalist arms and the products they sell and there fine customer service is head and shoulders above Piedersoli,

My Loyalist long land has NEVER failed me and is the belle of whatever ball she attends, I admit this may be because of my forming of her, and the work I have done to her.

She shoots great, and her lock makes the piedersoli besses look like plastic toys.

I respect and admire the opinions of my fellow shooters here, but on this one subject I will differ in opinion to some I think.


I come on the muzzleloading forum to have pleasant conversations with fellow traditional shooters, Look at nice muskets and rifles, and sometimes share a laugh or interesting story
not to get into a assinine oneupmanship
With naysayers.

If you want keep slagging the guns I know to be good by all means do so,I want to enjoy my fleeting moments of spare time not argueing



Thank you and good day!

Cheers

Rob!

 

[scroggwe]

Good Post Rob!! :thumbsup: