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Brown bess MVT or Loyalist ?

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bessbattlesystem said:
No I never took pictures of the plug thredding, because I had a GUNSMITH check my musket as all the paranoia on this site made me a bit afraid.

My gunsmith told me it was threaded tight / threaded well and guess what I AM GOING WITH HIS WORD..

I am not going to dick around with a wrench and maybe bugger up a fantastic musket.


Yes I extoll the QUALITY of my musket because it is well built "better then the italian ones I have seen" and has served me well, its lock is well built, IF FACT better then any one I have handeled so far.

I may not have answered you last year because as today I see no validity in its opinion.

That gun in the picture there is not a loyalist one.
I know you think every indian gun is the same but that is just not the case.

Just like not all American guns are the same ...Some use chinese/unvented/unproofed barells some don't.......................


Thank you and good day!

Cheers

Rob!



Rob, I wasn't going to answer your post because it is obvious that your feelings have been hurt and that has not been the intention of anyone involved. However, you need to realize that no one, especially the US custom barrel makers, is using "chinese/unvented/unproofed barells". This is a red herring that you have thrown in on two of your posts. I answered it on your other post and will not bother with it here. Suffice it to say that the custom barrel makers have not moved to China and do the work in their own shops.

Also, you are welcome to accept your gunsmith's word - he "told me it was threaded tight / threaded well and guess what I AM GOING WITH HIS WORD.." I am sure that he pulled the plug and verified the work to his professional satisfaction. You are a lucky man to have him checking it for you. Follow his advice in all things.

Pichou's enlargement of the photo above does seem to show some VERY light threads, I'm glad he posted it for us, but I do not think that the threads shown are anywhere near as deep as they should be. This could be for one of two different reasons:
(1)Either the die was oversize or the plug itself is too small in diameter to accept the full cut from it, or
(2)The barrel metal sheared off and stayed in the threads, making them look shallow in the poor quality photo. With a blank load, this should not have happened unless there was a bore obstruction - read Mike and Dan's posts on this possibility in the other thread. Keep this in mind, the pressure was released through that huge gap in the barrel, why did the plug back out like that?

At this point, this is my last post on this topic, I can see no reason to carry it further.
 
I think both sides of this topic have been pretty well expressed, I would suggest that all the post on the topic be set aside like the blowing down the barrel thing and if a newcommer wants to know about these guns he can read the small book and make his choice based on his interpretation of all the opinions/facts/conjecture.If we are going to toss stones at each other let's do it over something worthwhile like the use of modern bullets in ML hunting seasons and other issues that may be of value in stabilizing ML hunting around the country. :grin:
 
tg said:
I think both sides of this topic have been pretty well expressed, I would suggest that all the post on the topic be set aside like the blowing down the barrel thing and if a newcommer wants to know about these guns he can read the small book and make his choice based on his interpretation of all the opinions/facts/conjecture.If we are going to toss stones at each other let's do it over something worthwhile like the use of modern bullets in ML hunting seasons and other issues that may be of value in stabilizing ML hunting around the country. :grin:
Well OK, but I haven't even got to lecture on why it's important to buy american made products instead of foreign made...... :haha:
 
Rob and TG I agree with ya both. I was told things like this about my CVA when I first went to the range fact the first trip with it. Scared me so bad I never shot it that day. Well it has been shot many times after that and I am glad I finally shot it that year. I also had a gun smith look at it after he got done ragging me about fit and finish of my work ( Kit gun ) he told me to shoot it and then went out back and shot it to show me . The one bad part of what TG said is if done I will miss Mike Brooks
"lecture on why it's important to buy american made products instead of foreign made"
and I was so looking forward to it . :hmm: may be i could egg him on by saying nothing better then a xxxxxxx made in xxxxxxxx to out perform the bad over paid US worker junk made right here. Do ya think that may start him up? :wink:
 
There will always be topics that Mike can offer his experience and knowledge of gunbuilding and gun history with the rest of us...if need be we can purposely post some incorrect stuff and get him going.
 
Mike Brooks said:
tg said:
I think both sides of this topic have been pretty well expressed, I would suggest that all the post on the topic be set aside like the blowing down the barrel thing and if a newcommer wants to know about these guns he can read the small book and make his choice based on his interpretation of all the opinions/facts/conjecture.If we are going to toss stones at each other let's do it over something worthwhile like the use of modern bullets in ML hunting seasons and other issues that may be of value in stabilizing ML hunting around the country. :grin:
Well OK, but I haven't even got to lecture on why it's important to buy american made products instead of foreign made...... :haha:

Buy American! :thumbsup:

Even if you are Canadian :grin:

Doc
 
I just bought me some pakistani Poultry. Man I tell ya them Middle eastern roosters beat the heck out of our overfed, overpriced American Made Roosters
roosterbinladen-1.jpg

I call him Rooster Bin Laden. :haha:

What about it Mike, can we get that lecture now? :grin:
 
"The Italian guns I have seen and handeled are all either of lower or equal quality to the indian guns"

IMO the Italian guns are 10 times better than the Indian guns. The only problem with the Italian guns is they just aren't suitable for many events due to the fact that they are Short Land Patterns. There no point in a reenactor abusing a quality firearm. If you want to live fire the gun, then spend the $2000.00 a quality Bess will cost you.
 
I was at an F&I event this last weekend. We were told that Indian Besses are not allowed unless you have documentation that the breech plug is screwed in and not pressed in.

Just a word of warning.

Many Klatch
 
Many Klatch.

Just curious since our group uses a number of Indian muskets for Rev War, which event were you at that would not allow them?

Don R
 
Lore of the Laughery, in Friendship, Indiana. The event is NMLRA sponsored. I don't know all the details of the banning, but apparently pressed in breeches have been found in some of the India made muskets.

Many Klatch
 
Was there any documentation of bad breaches provided?

I suspect they were responding to rumor and not fact.

If one Indian gun was found to have a nonscrewed breach photos and documentation would be on the internet in 15 min.

If anyone can document a pressed breach please do so otherwise you are just gossiping.

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster
 
Heres your pal Rob
morning of day 2 at out regimental drill and skirmish practice the weekend that just passed posin for yall.

My loyalist kit bess, "how I love her"
shot and well, she shot while we were rained on, and she shot while dry and rogueing in the bush, all in all more then 25 or so shots and again ZERO problems! Long after the other muskets were a clickin mine was still boomin.

Its the Long land I love so.

My uniform is still comin together so dont mock me so bad.

Cheers guys


QueensRanger006.jpg
 
Mike Brooks said:
Oh boy, I've seen it all now..... :haha:
All kidding aside, here's something for you to chew on Mike.
My buddy recieved this email after he inquired of MVT about the split barrel:
Middlesex trading said:
Hello,

Wendy forwarded this to me to answer.

I am quite familiar with the pictures of the musket with the burst barrel. It was an accident caused by improper loading. Exactly what went wrong with loading will never be known, due to the nature of how blanks are loaded. The one thing that has been ruled out as a cause of the accident is any sort of defect with the gun. I have a lab report here that says so. If you look closely at the photographs, you will see a bulge about 10"-11" up the barrel from the breech. A bulge happens when there is some sort of obstruction. The obstruction could have been an object that got into the bore somehow, or it could have been a massive overload to the point that the unburned powder at the front acted as an obstruction.

The breech plug did not fail. There is no seam in a modern gun barrel. To anyone how actually knows anything about firearms, it is really obvious that there was some form of obstruction. The bulge in the barrel tells the story.

In any event, there must have been a ridiculous amount of powder involved and not just the single 100gr blank as claimed by the shooter. Think about it, there was enough powder to bulge and split a steel barrel, shatter a stock, and knock down several people around the shooter, and we are supposed to believe that the guy loaded a single blank? 100 grains of black powder just does not have that much energy potential. Personally, I think the guy had fouling in his vent so his charge wasn't going off, but he kept on priming and loading anyway. There were 9 rounds missing from his cartridge box, so potentially there was 900 grains in the thing when it finally went off. 900 grains is more than two ounces of powder, which is what I use in my 3-pdr cannon for a blank.

If your reenactor acquaintances claim that the musket destroyed in this accident burst along a seam, you should immediately question any other "information" that you hear from them. Being a reenactor does not automatically mean they know anything about guns. I hold reenactors to a higher standard than I do other people because the whole point of the hobby is supposedly about learning historical details by practicing them and then teaching them to the public at large. It annoys me to no end to hear reenactors repeating rumors and unfounded facts. We will agonize all winter long over which button is the correct one to use on the cuff of a shirt, yet so many people are willing to believe that there must have been a defect in a gun that was so obviously damaged through improper loading. Living history is supposed to be about "facts" and "research", not just forwarding half-baked claims on the internet. Shame on them!

By looking at the evidence of the accident, it should be obvious that the country of origin of the musket has nothing to do with the cause of the accident. Given the physical evidence, a $600 Indian gun would have burst, but so would a $1100 Italian one or a $3500 custom job.

With the exception of certain "inline" CVA brand deer hunting rifles that were recalled a few years ago for a breechplug issue, I am unaware of a single incident where a burst barrel in a modern built muzzleloader did not turn out to be caused by user error upon investigation by professionals. The photos your friends are talking about are no exception.

These musket barrels are made of drawn steel tubing, just as an other modern barrel. The breechplugs are threaded, and are actually a stronger, beefier breechplug than the originals or anything else out there. Like any other gun, the biggest safety problem is "the loose nut behind the stock". People don't give muzzleloaders the safety considerations they deserve, especially reenactors. Think about it: we shoot at each other! We dump blank rounds down the barrel that are well in excess of the regular service load if we were shooting it with ball. There are so many variables: powder type, powder charge, proper seating of projectiles. Yet most reenactors do not take their guns seriously because they just "fire blanks". You would not believe the near-miss accidents I have seen in the field because of people not taking gun safety seriously. There are several groups that I would not take the field with because of stuff I've seen them do. Yet when somebody screws up, it is the gun that gets blamed.

Thanks,

Pete
First off, this guy is trying way too hard to sell a musket.
I want to see the mysterious "bulge he's refering too, secondly, about that breechplug that "didn't fail" seems to me that the stock was the only thing that kept it from blowing!
Finally, the only thing I can agree on with this. . . "character" is the possibility of inadverdant multiple charges.
It'll be a cold day before I darken his doorstep, and until he comes clean with the manufacturer and solid documentation on the Barrel, then he's selling nothing but wall hangers.
I had high hopes for this company too, but not after this rant.
 
to each his own, but I think the letter is honestly written, and represents the facts, as best we can see them in the pictures we have been given here. There is some kind of shiney spot down the barrel where the crack begins. Without a better, close-up picture, you do have to rely on the comments of people who actually saw the gun to tell you what you are looking at in the picture. So what! We have relied on testimonial evidence to prove all kinds of facts over the years, and long before we had photographs.

I think this kind of rupture can only be explained by a huge overload, and a bore obstruction. The shooter may not have knowingly loaded the gun that way, but 100 grains of powder is NOT going to rupture that barrel, even with a bore obstruction. If this shooter had oil down in the breech area of the gun and failed to clear it with alcohol before shooting, he may very well have loaded all 9 charges without one of them actually firing off, during one of their close drills, and volley fires. Nothing beats eye witness testimony coupled with a good examination of the gun involved. The letter indicates that the gun was examined, and found to have been bulged. The examination finds no " seam " that split. If you ever examine a barrel that has a seam, you will spot it instantly, trust me. MY grandfather's shotgun had an 8 inch long Scratch down one of its barrels, that went right through the full choke at the muzzle. I check by sight, by feel, and then even by holding a bright light in the barrel to see if the scratch was instead a " seam ". I finally cut off the 8 inch segment, shortening the barrels to 22 inches. I check that scratch out thoroughly from both ends, and was easily able to conclude it was just a deep scratch-- way too deep through the full choke section to let me shoot the gun again with that scratch. I have fired several thousand rounds through that gun since I cut down the barrel, and the old horse is doing just fine. It gets an examination after each shooting, as part of my cleaning and mainenance process. It needs new coil springs for the firing pins, and the mainsprings still need to be reduced, but otherwise, it shoots okay. The great laugh is that a gun that would bring no more than #80-$100 as a wallhanger 40 years ago, can now command a price approaching $1,000 due to the interest in CAS.
 
I have seen the results of an over-charged flintlock (pistol) so I'm willing to accept that excuse. I take exception to his indignation when an honest inquiry was made of him. his unwillingness to provide technical data on his barrels, and his "proprietary" manufacturer is just too much. If he is unwilling to come clean on who's making his besses, and provide legitimate documentation on the constituent parts, then he needs to be treated accordingly; I have no tolerance for people like him. Mike Brooks, or any other gun builder on this site will not hesitate to provide this information. Why won't this "character"? I suspect he doesn't even know for sure.
 
And I think just the opposite, Rusty. Because his income rides on the quality of the products he sells, why would he risk his business to pedal an inferior product? I find most retailers want NOTHING to do with shoddy products. Their attitude is " If I won't buy it, I don't expect my customers to buy it, either. "

Most small business men build their businesses on word of mouth advertising, simply because they can't afford the high cost of other forms of advertising. Their word is their bond, as old fashioned as that is to some people, and they want their customers to be happy. One unhappy customer can destroy years of goodwill earned through making others happy.

I think a report from him can be trusted and relied upon. The only reason he is not disclosing more information is probably because his insurance company or lawyer has advised him NOT to disclose that information. You may not be a target for a defamation lawsuit for trying to blame the manufacturer of the gun for a failure that is NOT its fault, but He has his life invested in his small business, and should not risk even the costs of defending such a suit, by disclosing the name of the manufacturer.

Its clear from what he has told us that the incident is the result of a bore obstruction, not manufacturer negligence. His lawyer is NOT going to let him say anything that will slander the manufacturer and expose him to such a lawsuit. At least that is how I advise my clients in these matters.
 
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