Brown bess MVT or Loyalist ?

[Russ T Frizzen]

The manufacturer is safe from any liability law suit as he is ensconced in a hut in India. He is at no risk whatsoever--unless perhaps he fires one of his own creations. An evaluation of the damaged gun by an independent examiner would carry much more weight with me.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Russ: You are correct. But there are more laws than Products Liability law for the dealer here to be concerned about. YOU may not be able to sue the Manufacturer HERE for a Products Liability claim, however false, but the Manufacturer can sue the retailer here for Defamation of Character( Slander, or Libel) if his comments cause harm to the manufacturer's business( sales), and the retailer knows, or should know, that his comments are false.

 

[Parzifal]

Sounds like a decent HONEST reply!

I like him already!

 

[bnail]

Sounds like someone who's too defensive to me. his rant was in response to a simple question about barrel safety. His muskets may be perfectly safe, but until he steps up with something more than his -questionable- word, I won't think twice about his inventory.
I deplore tactics like his. Deny Deny Deny, and then make counter accusations.
regardless of fault, his stance is clear. And, BBS, if your bess self destructs, I think it's clear what kind of support you'll recieve from this guy. :bull:
Do we even know these are Indian-made? perhaps they're Pakistani, we only have this guy's word.

 

[scroggwe]

Wow!! I got just the opposite impression from reading that letter! Did we read the same letter? :shake:

 

[Parzifal]

Wow!! I got just the opposite impression from reading that letter! Did we read the same letter? :shake:

I agree
It doesnt sound defensive at all!
Sounds like a honest reply from a decent gent.

His reply is far less defensive as his detractors are slanderous without cause.

It never ceases to astound me how some immediatly call this mans opinion questionable.

I myself deplore tactics like this-attack without reason-slander without reason and in the face of positive results IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE[color=red[/color]]

I have not done buisness with him yet as so far I have worked with loyalist.

My pal has one of his 1777's and its a very well functioning musket.

But having ran my musket through trials aplenty, hunting/target shooting/reinacting I know its as safe as any musket out there.

And that said more relyable and beautiful then most.

Why would my quality bess self destruct?

In the case of my gross incompitence with overcharging and then not seating my ball on the powder, what would ANY company do when the fault would be with the user?

 

[bnail]

What's wrong BBS? afraid too many negative comments about Indian/Pakistani imports might cause you to regret wasting your money? Loyalist Arms is no better than MVT when it comes to disclosure of their cottage industry weapons.
I said all I'm going to say on this topic. I was extremely P-O'd at the guy's response when I posted and replied accordingly; I've since cooled off but My opinions have not changed.
You can go play with your imports, I really don't care. . . as long as you're not standing too close to me that is :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Skagan: I don't see where xenophobia contributes anything to this discussion, and it certainly is not personally flattering to you.


For weeks now, we have all been reading about an accident that MAY involve a gun made in India, that Is SUPPOSE TO have ruptured along a seam with a standard powder charge.

Well, now, we have the photo, and the BEST AVAILABLE EVIDENCE seems to indicate that the barrel ruptured as a result of a bore obstruction. NO ONE is accusing the owner of intentionally ruining his own barrel, stock, and endangering people around him. This was a accident. :haha: :shocked2: :surrender:

I can't see any point of now suggesting the barrel may be made in " Pakistan"( what is that about?) instead of India, unless you have some ADDITIONAL PROOF to offer the discussion. :hmm: :surrender:

WADR, you are beginning to sound like Dodi Fayed and his conspiracy theory to explain the death of Princess Diana, and his son. :nono: I am glad to see you have decided that you are ending your comments about this matter. :wink: You are a little late. :wink: :wink: :hatsoff:

 

[Halftail]

xenophobia= a hatred or fear of foreigners.

I had to look that up. :thumbsup: I'll remember it next time I play scrabble. :grin:

 

[bnail]

you are ending your comments about this matter. . . a little late.

:rotf:
yeah, I'd have to agree with you Paul! :thumbsup:
I started this as a rant against a percieved blind condemnation, and I'm afraid I've ended up sounding worse than the Jerk I was railing against.
Regardless, I've said what I said, I can't/won't retract my statements, I Just won't add anything else that doesn't apply as this has already gone too far off topic. I have more personal experience with LA than MVT, and that was a hugely negative goround with a malfunctioning lock, not a bursting barrel. For the record, I never disparaged the weapons themselves, just MVT's tactic of Deny, and counter accusations.
I'm only slightly xenopheobic, more of a Jingo:grin:
What I deplore more than the Indian-made guns is the way they're being sold. If anyone were to hand me an Indian musket with Ishepore stamped on it, I probably wouldn't think twice, but when MVT will only tell me that the mfg is a third generation business, :bull:
Regardless, I see I'm starting to climb back on that soapbox.
if you reread my posts, you'll see where my beef lay, it's not with the shooters (well, most of 'em anyway :wink
Cheers Paul! :v

 

[Tman]

Dodi Fayed was the son that was killed I believe. See how a simple detail can be sent on the net erroneously?

I must have missed something in this whole affair. Was it EVER stated that the blown gun WAS from MVT?

I personally do not think his response was too defensive at all, merely analytical.

The fact that MVT will not tell his source does not scare me in the least. I happen to be involved in a (non firearms) product that we manufacture overseas. All I can say that as an American company we KNOW we have to deal with certain laws,liabilities and regulations and produce a product that will pass muster for safety AND the stipulations from the US market. I could tell you what the factory we use but in reality it does not mean squat to the average person sitting behinf the monitor NOR would they have a clue about a person 5000 miles away that is doing the work.

 

[scroggwe]

I've been reading these negative posts by Skagan, VaMfg06, Mike Brooks, Russ T. Frizzen and others for months now. I have remained mostly silent as I don't want any confrontations with these fine folks, whom I respect. BBS has taken the brunt of most of these criticisms alone.

I am going to inject here my personal opinion (take it with a grain of salt). These folks are entitled to their opinions and they are just that; opinions. It doesn't matter how much muzzleloading shooting experience these guys have. I have been shooting muzzleloaders for 30+ years. That statement doesn't mean squat here on the forum and I don't expect to change anyone's mind.

I am a retired Army Infantryman (I retired in 1991) and have alot of experience with firearms. I also collect military bolt-action rifles and muzzleloaders, both original and reproduction. With all of that being said, I would not shoot these Indian-made muskets if I thought they were unsafe. I didn't spend 23 years in the Infantry just to blow myself up with a reproduction muzzleloader.

I own two Indian-made muskets. I have a Military Dog-lock musket that I purchased two years ago from The Discriminating General. I have probably fired around 100 rounds through it with not a glitch. The lock sparks as good or better than my other muskets. The vent on these DG muskets is not drilled, so they can be shipped to the US, not because they are non-shooters!! And yes, DG makes a CYA (for you non-military types that means Cover Your A--!) statement about drilling the vent. I would too if my lawyers told me to.

I have just this week recieved a Long Land Service Brown Bess from Loyalist Arms. I haven't fired it yet, but fully intend to do so. As expected, the stock is oversized, but is beautifully inletted. Loyalist Arms calls this their Pattern 1728 model (I believe it should actually be called a Pattern 1730). The feather spring is very heavy and it has a heavy trigger pull. These things I will correct myself. I was already aware of these problems before I ordered. LA shipped the lock separate for the same reason that DG doesn't drill thier vents.

Somebody on this forum recently stated that "Knowledgable" people wouldn't own or shoot these Indian-made muskets (thats not his exact words, but was the gist of his statement). I took much exception to that statement. I consider myself knowledgable about muzzleloading muskets and don't have any qualms about shooting mine. I got the impression that he felt if you or me or anyone bought and fired these muskets, that we were less than knowledgable, or in other words, stupid!! I don't like being called stupid, even in a round-about way.

Somebody else stated that the fit and finish on these muskets was the worst he had ever seen and looked like they had been inletted with a screwdriver! I don't know what muskets you folks are looking at, but that is a ridiculous statement.

Both of my Indian-made muskets are just as well built as my Pedersoli Short Land Brown Bess. I will have to admit that I have only seen two other Indian-made muskets, besides the two that I own. No, they are not as finely finished as my two custom-built guns (I own a Bobby Christian flint .62 Fowler and an Andy Knight .40 percussion North Carolina rifle). The inletting on both of mine is well done and I can't put a fingernail between the wood and metal.

Are these completely historically accurate reproductions? No, but then neither is my Pedersoli, but they are certainly not "cartoons" of the actual guns they emulate. The only way that I know of to get a completely accurate military musket is to have one custom built for around $2500.00 to $3000.00. I don't know about you folks, but I can't justify that kind of money on the retired pay of an Army Sergeant First Class!!

I do understand why Mike Brooks looks down his nose at these guns. If I built as fine a gun as Mike, I would too probably. His work is legendary on this forum and I have seen one of his guns in person several years ago. Beautiful Work!!

So, Mike Brooks, VaMfg06, Skagan, Rust T. Frizzen, please don't take my post as a jab at you fellas. It's not. I have absolute respect for you fellas and your experience, but don't understand why it is your mission in life to trash ALL Indian-made muskets. I do understand that there have probably been some badly made ones out there (with ONE blowing up), but that doesn't mean they are all that way.

As for Skagan's statement that he doesn't want someone shooting one next to him....Skagan you're free to leave the range when I shoot mine. It won't hurt my feelings!

I'm done now fellas!

 

[Parzifal]

Mr SKAGAN, sir Why would I be afraid of anything regarding my musket?
It is pretty and functions quite well, and is quite safe!
more so then not it out shoots other far more expensive guns that click away.

Though I am shure I wasted my money on my Italian bess from piedersoli.

why are you so very negative?

Did some one with a indian gun out shoot you in a match or something?"Forgive me this one jab"

You did not like Petes responce?? why.... because it went contrary to your opinion of these guns??

All this arguement ...Geeze

I just wanted to say I respect the educated opinions of my fellow forum members, though I cannot help but stand in support of the musket I have and those I have seen.


seems some of us maybe myself included are a step from blantant name callin for no damn reason
we are all shooters and we all love our muskets

Maybe we should all light some candles in the stead of cursing the darkness!!

Rob

 

[bnail]

you're right. :v

 

[TxRambler]

I have owned a 3rd model Bess from Loyalist for about 1-1/2 years (yes, I am a poor private in Santa Anna's army). I also shoot it frequently at the range. When I bought it I did not know of an American option, I thought there were just Italian and Indian, and bought from Loyalist based on the recommendations of others. I have no idea how it compares to an original or to other replicas but I have no complaints and feel I got more than my money's worth. Hope this helps. By the way, it always draws a crowd at the range.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I must have missed something in this whole affair. Was it EVER stated that the blown gun WAS from MVT?

There were some interesting posts in a thread on another forum, to which I've unfortunately lost the link. One correspondent, who was knew the individual involved and was at the event, did some research. Concerning the firelock in question, he found that it was not from any of the "big 3" of Indian imports, each of which has a different supplier. Besides these, there are several other small-time importers who deal with other Indian manufacturers, and this Bess was from one of them, although the writer would not name names until the legal dust had settled further.

So, (and this is a rhetorical question) if one hears of an absolute lemon of a Toyota (I knew of one - in a Land Cruiser, of all things!), should one condemn all Hondas, Mitsubishis, Suzukis, and Mazdas, as well as all other Toyotas, sight unseen?

Joel

 

[bnail]

I must have missed something in this whole affair. Was it EVER stated that the blown gun WAS from MVT?

So, (and this is a rhetorical question) if one hears of an absolute lemon of a Toyota (I knew of one - in a Land Cruiser, of all things!), should one condemn all Hondas, Mitsubishis, Suzukis, and Mazdas, as well as all other Toyotas, sight unseen?
Joel

I guess not, but I was thinking just the opposite, just because your pinto hasn't blown up dosen't maker it any safer, but I digress.

Regardless of all the importers of Indian weapons, there's basically only three issues I see worth discussing: safety, authenticity, and customer support.
is there really any difference in long land pattern muskets between LA and MVT in these three areas?

 

[Parzifal]

Just speaking of the muskets I have,

My long land is safe,functions absolutly fantasticly, and the customer service is top notch "loyalist"
Comparing Her to a origional in the museum the only noticeable difference is that mine is not 260 years old/ the trigger looks a bit different, and the ramrod pipes on mine are a bit thicker.

I myself have yet to deal with M.V.T some of my friends have and they have no complaints.

Beyond that I cant speak for them though.

Further:I do believe each company has their own factorys there,
they all do not come from one source, that said I believe there could be slight differences in design.

 

[davidthered]

The verdicts in, :applause: http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/221185/

Petes not such a 'character' now is he.

 

[bnail]

PM sent