Brown bess patterns

[Magungo1066]

Hello all! I am planning on a Brown Bess build from the Rifle Shop. I know the Pedersoli version is a fine gun, but I am too strong a nerd and I want mine to be a little more historically correct. I have called the shop and gotten the various waiting times for the different models. My question is in regard to which of the several patterns that they offer would be most appropriate for a New England militia man. I know basically any version of musket could have found its way into anyone’s hands but I am just speaking of “generally”. I am not well versed in the different versions of the musket. Id prefer it to be one of the models with a “musket sized” barrel. The shorter sea service ones look really cool but I doubt they are as appropriate for what the average New England Joe may have had. I have a New England styled fowler already so I am specifically set on a Brown Bess. Thanks all!
PS. Even though I like it, lets disregard the “Willets” version for now. From what I was told it is going to be a long time before they are available again

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
This is a fairly easy question to answer. First, don't kid yourself into thinking colonial troops walked off with their ordnance issued Brown Besses or colony issued commercial muskets after the F&I war and Pontiac's rebellion. Those guns were returned to stores. They may have carried off French muskets as booty but not many British muskets. So a militiaman just prior to the Rev War likely would have a civilian fowler converted to military use, a French model 1728 or possibly 1746 musket, or a locally produced musket made from surplus Brown Bess, or French musket parts. A few pattern 1730/40 and pattern 1742 Brown Besses may have circulated among them. Then early in 1775 colonial rebels broke into the colonial arsenals, such as Turtle Bay, NY and privateers took British supply ships such as the "Nancy". A lot more Brown Besses became available and those would have been Patterns 1730/40, 1742, and 1756 long land muskets. In addition, there likely would be some older commercially-made muskets in some of those arsenals as well. That would be particularly true for New York. Early in the conflict, American soldiers were starved for serviceable muskets, which is why there was a push to make Committee of Safety and other locally manufactured guns such as those by the Hills family in western CT. Once a reliable supply line to France was established, the need for locally made muskets diminished a lot. So to sum up, if you are set on a Brown Bess for a militiaman just prior and during the Rev War , your choices of British Brown Bess patterns are the 1730/40, 1742, and 1756, all long land muskets. The patterns 1742 and 1756 would be the most common at that time. There would not be any short land muskets, like what the Pedersoli attempts to be, except perhaps for some older muskets with shortened barrels. Forget the Willets marked lock. It is incorrectly marked. Willets is not known to provide locks to British ordnance until 1762.

dave

 

[TobJohn]

Hi,
This is a fairly easy question to answer. First, don't kid yourself into thinking colonial troops walked off with their ordnance issued Brown Besses or colony issued commercial muskets after the F&I war and Pontiac's rebellion. Those guns were returned to stores. They may have carried off French muskets as booty but not many British muskets. So a militiaman just prior to the Rev War likely would have a civilian fowler converted to military use, a French model 1728 or possibly 1746 musket, or a locally produced musket made from surplus Brown Bess, or French musket parts. A few pattern 1730/40 and pattern 1742 Brown Besses may have circulated among them. Then early in 1775 colonial rebels broke into the colonial arsenals, such as Turtle Bay, NY and privateers took British supply ships such as the "Nancy". A lot more Brown Besses became available and those would have been Patterns 1730/40, 1742, and 1756 long land muskets. In addition, there likely would be some older commercially-made muskets in some of those arsenals as well. That would be particularly true for New York. Early in the conflict, American soldiers were starved for serviceable muskets, which is why there was a push to make Committee of Safety and other locally manufactured guns such as those by the Hills family in western CT. Once a reliable supply line to France was established, the need for locally made muskets diminished a lot. So to sum up, if you are set on a Brown Bess for a militiaman just prior and during the Rev War , your choices of British Brown Bess patterns are the 1730/40, 1742, and 1756, all long land muskets. The patterns 1742 and 1756 would be the most common at that time. There would not be any short land muskets, like what the Pedersoli attempts to be, except perhaps for some older muskets with shortened barrels. Forget the Willets marked lock. It is incorrectly marked. Willets is not known to provide locks to British ordnance until 1762.

dave

Would French trade guns, like the Fusil de Chasse have been used by colonial militia?

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Unlikely, because of its smaller bore and it was not adaptable for a bayonet. Remember, the colonies had to try and standardize ammunition as much as they could so having a wide mix of bore sizes was a problem. Militia regulations usually specified bore size.

dave

 

[Magungo1066]

Hi,
This is a fairly easy question to answer. First, don't kid yourself into thinking colonial troops walked off with their ordnance issued Brown Besses or colony issued commercial muskets after the F&I war and Pontiac's rebellion. Those guns were returned to stores. They may have carried off French muskets as booty but not many British muskets. So a militiaman just prior to the Rev War likely would have a civilian fowler converted to military use, a French model 1728 or possibly 1746 musket, or a locally produced musket made from surplus Brown Bess, or French musket parts. A few pattern 1730/40 and pattern 1742 Brown Besses may have circulated among them. Then early in 1775 colonial rebels broke into the colonial arsenals, such as Turtle Bay, NY and privateers took British supply ships such as the "Nancy". A lot more Brown Besses became available and those would have been Patterns 1730/40, 1742, and 1756 long land muskets. In addition, there likely would be some older commercially-made muskets in some of those arsenals as well. That would be particularly true for New York. Early in the conflict, American soldiers were starved for serviceable muskets, which is why there was a push to make Committee of Safety and other locally manufactured guns such as those by the Hills family in western CT. Once a reliable supply line to France was established, the need for locally made muskets diminished a lot. So to sum up, if you are set on a Brown Bess for a militiaman just prior and during the Rev War , your choices of British Brown Bess patterns are the 1730/40, 1742, and 1756, all long land muskets. The patterns 1742 and 1756 would be the most common at that time. There would not be any short land muskets, like what the Pedersoli attempts to be, except perhaps for some older muskets with shortened barrels. Forget the Willets marked lock. It is incorrectly marked. Willets is not known to provide locks to British ordnance until 1762.

dave

Thanks for all your knowledge! I guess I have a follow up question! Civilian usage aside, what model or models would have been most prevalent among British soldiers in the French and Indian war. And the same question for a lobster-back at the time of the Revolution. This is referring exclusively to those soldiers in the infantry. Thanks!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
That is again and easy question. The workhorse musket during the French and Indian War was the pattern 1742. There might be a few pattern 1730/40s issued mainly to provincials. What gets complicated is that many of those muskets, originally issued with wooden ramrods would be converted to iron and steel ramrods and brass nose bands installed. That happened before and after issue. In 1748, the Tower set up pattern 1742s from the get go with steel ramrods and appropriate pipes and a cast brass nose cap. However, it is very unclear how many of those made it to NA and only a few are recorded as made. If you are a British soldier during the F&I war, you likely carried a pattern 1742 musket with steel rammer and brass nose band. If you are a Provincial soldier, you likely had a pattern 1742 as issued with wooden rammer and no nose band.

During the early years of the Revolution, you would likely carry a pattern 1756 long land musket. After 1778, you might be as likely to carry pattern 1769 and 1777 short land muskets as long lands. In the first 2 years of the war, some pattern 1769 short land muskets were issued but in small numbers. Most would be marked "Dublin Castle" but some would be Tower muskets. If you are a grenadier, you carried a pattern 1756 the entire war. If you are in a battalion company, you likely had a 1756 long land that might be swapped for a short land musket later in the war. A few of you would have pattern 1769s from the outset of the war. If you are a "light Bob" (light infantry) most of you would have pattern 1760 light infantry fusils during the first 2 years of the war and then you would be issued either pattern short land musket. A few members of each company of light infantry might be issued pattern 1776 muzzle loading rifles after 1776.

dave

 

[Artificer]

Hello all! I am planning on a Brown Bess build from the Rifle Shop. I know the Pedersoli version is a fine gun, but I am too strong a nerd and I want mine to be a little more historically correct. I have called the shop and gotten the various waiting times for the different models. My question is in regard to which of the several patterns that they offer would be most appropriate for a New England militia man. I know basically any version of musket could have found its way into anyone’s hands but I am just speaking of “generally”. I am not well versed in the different versions of the musket. Id prefer it to be one of the models with a “musket sized” barrel. The shorter sea service ones look really cool but I doubt they are as appropriate for what the average New England Joe may have had. I have a New England styled fowler already so I am specifically set on a Brown Bess. Thanks all!
PS. Even though I like it, lets disregard the “Willets” version for now. From what I was told it is going to be a long time before they are available again

The ONLY wide issue of brand new P 1730 "Brown Bess" Muskets to any colonial Provincial Militia was Governor Oglethorpe's militia in Georgia in the late 1730's. Good to be a personal friend of the King, eh?

Actually as a New Englander and since you guys cleaned out Fortress Louisbourg in both 1745 and 1758, a captured French Musket (like Dave mentioned earlier) at least may if not would have been the more common musket for you to have.

Gus

 

[Notchy Bob]

This would be a good book for you to review: Red Coat and Brown Bess, by Anthony Darling. Still $16.95 from Track. I think it is a good "primer" on this musket. There are other and more expensive books out there, but this one may meet your needs.

Notchy Bob

 

[tenngun]

Would French trade guns, like the Fusil de Chasse have been used by colonial militia?

Some French guns did get in to the hands of colonials but in general a British colonist would have British or Dutch guns

 

[wganz]

here are some reference books on British arms that should be helpful:

British Military Flintlock Rifles, 1740-1840: De Witt Bailey: 9781931464031: Amazon.com: Books

Small Arms of the British Forces 1664-1815: De Witt Bailey: 9781931464406: Amazon.com: Books

 

[FlinterNick]

Hello all! I am planning on a Brown Bess build from the Rifle Shop. I know the Pedersoli version is a fine gun, but I am too strong a nerd and I want mine to be a little more historically correct. I have called the shop and gotten the various waiting times for the different models. My question is in regard to which of the several patterns that they offer would be most appropriate for a New England militia man. I know basically any version of musket could have found its way into anyone’s hands but I am just speaking of “generally”. I am not well versed in the different versions of the musket. Id prefer it to be one of the models with a “musket sized” barrel. The shorter sea service ones look really cool but I doubt they are as appropriate for what the average New England Joe may have had. I have a New England styled fowler already so I am specifically set on a Brown Bess. Thanks all!
PS. Even though I like it, lets disregard the “Willets” version for now. From what I was told it is going to be a long time before they are available again

I assembled a Track of the Wolf Wilets Brown Bess Musket a few years back. After doing some recent research on the Wilets Lock that is used on the Track Long Land, I have to discover that the Lock is actually intended for the following muskets.. a regimental contract musket and a 1744 shortland musket for Dragoons.

Regimental contract muskets are a bit of a mystery, in that there are many variations however Wilson is the most recognized marked lock on regimental contract muskets, the famous NY and NJ contract muskets are often presented in articles and presentation. These muskets are generally made with smaller furniture and sometimes lack a wrist plate and may have a wooden or steel rammer.

George Moller’s collection has the only Wiliets lock dated before 1756 that is intended for a musket. The Lock is actually dated 1747 marked Willets(mind my spelling please), the lock was also designed by a contract gun maker named Clinton which I can’t find any records for, this lock is identical to the Willets lock with a slightly thicker plate (but this could a modification for shrinkage).

In the picture below is the shortland dragoon musket with the 1747 Willets lock. The lock differs from the Track lock, in that it does not have a pan bridle and the frizzen spring has a pointed final.

per the owner of the Rifle Shoppe, both guns with locks were copied from Moller’s collection. The Rifle shoppe owner made Bess molds marked Willets 1746 for a company named CD Jarningan, and for a very limited time CD Jarnigan made a long land, this long land is discernible from the fact that it was made with Miroku Charleville Internals, and Track’s Willets lock in their catalog actually features this lock with a Miroku charleville mainspring, odd as to why they chose this, that leaves a lot of excess room on the plate and a lot of wood to leave in the mortise (in the picture the spring is a Miroku spring). Track bought the molds and redesigned the lock with a long land mainspring.

Basically the Track Lock is not really a 1742 long land lock, its smaller and thinner in the plate than an actual 1742 lock. the lock plate measures roughly 6 1/2 inches with the rifle shoppe’s copy measuring just under 7” around 6 7/8.

Not to detract from the Track Locks’ quality, its a very good lock, the geometry is done well and it consistently throws a great shower of sparks.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi,
This is a fairly easy question to answer. First, don't kid yourself into thinking colonial troops walked off with their ordnance issued Brown Besses or colony issued commercial muskets after the F&I war and Pontiac's rebellion. Those guns were returned to stores. They may have carried off French muskets as booty but not many British muskets. So a militiaman just prior to the Rev War likely would have a civilian fowler converted to military use, a French model 1728 or possibly 1746 musket, or a locally produced musket made from surplus Brown Bess, or French musket parts. A few pattern 1730/40 and pattern 1742 Brown Besses may have circulated among them. Then early in 1775 colonial rebels broke into the colonial arsenals, such as Turtle Bay, NY and privateers took British supply ships such as the "Nancy". A lot more Brown Besses became available and those would have been Patterns 1730/40, 1742, and 1756 long land muskets. In addition, there likely would be some older commercially-made muskets in some of those arsenals as well. That would be particularly true for New York. Early in the conflict, American soldiers were starved for serviceable muskets, which is why there was a push to make Committee of Safety and other locally manufactured guns such as those by the Hills family in western CT. Once a reliable supply line to France was established, the need for locally made muskets diminished a lot. So to sum up, if you are set on a Brown Bess for a militiaman just prior and during the Rev War , your choices of British Brown Bess patterns are the 1730/40, 1742, and 1756, all long land muskets. The patterns 1742 and 1756 would be the most common at that time. There would not be any short land muskets, like what the Pedersoli attempts to be, except perhaps for some older muskets with shortened barrels. Forget the Willets marked lock. It is incorrectly marked. Willets is not known to provide locks to British ordnance until 1762.

dave

Would French trade guns, like the Fusil de Chasse have been used by colonial militia?

As Dave pointed out french trade guns and fusil de chases would not likely have been used by colonial militia. They were just too small.

French Arms in North America did have a significant impact after the French and Indian War in that many were sold off as surplus, to gunmakers and contractors. locks from M1717, through models 1754 are often found on militia muskets in .72-.78 caliber. Other parts too, trigger guards, barrel bands Ramrods. We’re also canabalized.

Entire french muskets of the models 1728 and 1746 would have been in circulation in the North. Its possible some 1754’s were captured at Louisborg, but there are no records to support that model being shipped over, the 1754 was the latest model and would have been available to France’s continental forces. The French Admiralty was in charge of arming Quebec and was a lesser priority to arm than the continental army fighting in Europe.

In the 1776 shipment to the colonies form France, parts for older models 1717-1754 muskets, rampart guns, and fusils were sent over to be stocked in the colonies too. These muskets parts were older and in poor and would have been replaced by the later shipments of 1763 and 1766 muskets.

Other french muskets that would have been available are grenadier muskets, and ordinaries muskets in .69-72 caliber, this muskets are sometimes very similar to the M 1717 musket, some would have been stocked with brass furniture.

 

[FlinterNick]

The ONLY wide issue of brand new P 1730 "Brown Bess" Muskets to any colonial Provincial Militia was Governor Oglethorpe's militia in Georgia in the late 1730's. Good to be a personal friend of the King, eh?

Actually as a New Englander and since you guys cleaned out Fortress Louisbourg in both 1745 and 1758, a captured French Musket (like Dave mentioned earlier) at least may if not would have been the more common musket for you to have.

Gus

A very nice musket too. The large pan with the high fence was a nice feature. I’ve been told by some collectors that there were some of these P1730 locks made with the larger pan and a pan bridle, I dismissed this I’m keeping my eye out for one but I have a feeling it may be a Dutch Musket confused as a long land.

 

[Dave Fox]

 

[Dave Fox]

Here's a Pattern 1756 w/ GRICE 1759 lockplate and barrel engraved for the 40th Regiment of Foot. 40th Button recovered at Germantown, I believe. This musket may have fallen into Patriot hands during the Battle of Princeton, 3 January, 1777 where the 40th was roughly handled, a contingent surrendering in the university's Nassau Hall.

 

[MAPMFF]

Now I suddenly want a 1728 French Infantry Musket

 

[Dave Fox]

Now I suddenly want a 1728 French Infantry Musket

Take two aspirin and a nap....

 

[MAPMFF]

Take two aspirin and a nap....

If only that worked!

 

[nhmoose]

Anyone knows the number of arms seized at Louisburg by colonial troops?

Bing don't help me at all.

 

[tenngun]

When I started this bess came in three models. Since then there has been a wealth of data about how the models have evolved.
And Lordy don’t mention a Pedesoli people will be falling all over them selves to tell you what’s wrong with it. Indian guns have been known to cause stokes in people seeing them
Of old each regiments had an armorer. And after a fight I’m thinking the armorer was pretty busy repairing and modifying guns.
I bet when Cornwallis invested Yorktown his army had guns that wouldn’t pass muster for a dyed in the regimental coat hard core bess expert.
I’ve seen a few real ones and lots of photos. I’m hard pressed to believe if an Indian or Pede was thrown in with a little artificial age ing any one could pick out the fake.
I look at WW2 airplanes and tanks and the amount of personal modifications
And making was a lot more uniform then then the eighteenth century.
Someone will say I’m all wet on this thinking, but I THINK if we went back in time we all would be very surprised by what we saw