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I agree. I've already put in word that this is to be next year's Christmas present, if I can wait that long!
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Brown Bess ?'s
- Thread starter JEEVES
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I just spoke to Robert Henderson from Military Heritage. He was very helpful & came across as one of my friends instead of a salesman. These muskets are made just like the original Bess paterns. They are totally period correct repro's. He definitely knows his stuff & talked about the mistakes made on other repro's. The only reason they don't drill the vents is to make them easy to ship almost anywhere.
These are high quality muskets. They use high carbon steel & a special hardening process for the hammer so it shouldn't need to be case hardened later. Yes, they throw awesome sparks. They do carry parts for these but haven't had any one order any yet (that sounds great to me)!!! If you're not happy with anything, send it back & you're only out the shipping. It sounded like they've never had one returned. :shocking:
These are $539 vs. $899 for a Pesersoli. I think I'm going to order one of these since nobody else will! I'll post on it if I do.
These are high quality muskets. They use high carbon steel & a special hardening process for the hammer so it shouldn't need to be case hardened later. Yes, they throw awesome sparks. They do carry parts for these but haven't had any one order any yet (that sounds great to me)!!! If you're not happy with anything, send it back & you're only out the shipping. It sounded like they've never had one returned. :shocking:
These are $539 vs. $899 for a Pesersoli. I think I'm going to order one of these since nobody else will! I'll post on it if I do.
Guest
Right-On- I KNEW this would be the result of a call to them. The vents are "spotted" for you to drill with a 1/16" hole right on the dimple. Use whatever size they recommendif different. This dimple should be the correct place for the vent. It should right in line with the very top of the pan, with a line drawn across the top of the pan, disecting the vent hole in the middle.(or very close to that line)
: If you want to put in a liner, you should use the "White Lightening" liner, probably in 5/16X32 size, or whatever size gives you the most threads per inch. You want at least 3 thread purchase - have a look or measure it out as 3 is minimal if not 4 or more if possible. That will all dependon the barrel thickness at the breech.
: I would try the 1/16" hole first and if ignition wasn't fast enough, I'd pull the plug, go in with a dremel and small bit and thin the metal where the hole comes into the bore - very carefully, to hollow it slightly, just like a good vent liner. This will improve ignition speed to the same as having a good vent liner. There are vent liners out there that are nothing but garbage. I would only put in a "White Lightening" liner when and if the vent hole got too big from wear - probably never happen.
: The "Hammer" is the proper name for the frizzen and is not the "Cock". The frizzen is hardened with an cyanide process that would be illegal to do here in North America.(too dangerous) This cyanide process is what was done to ALL of the originals of that period to my knowledge.
Daryl
: If you want to put in a liner, you should use the "White Lightening" liner, probably in 5/16X32 size, or whatever size gives you the most threads per inch. You want at least 3 thread purchase - have a look or measure it out as 3 is minimal if not 4 or more if possible. That will all dependon the barrel thickness at the breech.
: I would try the 1/16" hole first and if ignition wasn't fast enough, I'd pull the plug, go in with a dremel and small bit and thin the metal where the hole comes into the bore - very carefully, to hollow it slightly, just like a good vent liner. This will improve ignition speed to the same as having a good vent liner. There are vent liners out there that are nothing but garbage. I would only put in a "White Lightening" liner when and if the vent hole got too big from wear - probably never happen.
: The "Hammer" is the proper name for the frizzen and is not the "Cock". The frizzen is hardened with an cyanide process that would be illegal to do here in North America.(too dangerous) This cyanide process is what was done to ALL of the originals of that period to my knowledge.
Daryl
My brown bess does not have a liner, just a hole in the side of the barrel...
Now, if you get one of these Besses that need drilled, by all means, take the lock out before you drill it...
This will ensure that you can drill it straight forth, and not at an angle due to the frizzen and pan being in the way...
Now, if you get one of these Besses that need drilled, by all means, take the lock out before you drill it...
This will ensure that you can drill it straight forth, and not at an angle due to the frizzen and pan being in the way...
If it were mine I would drill just the vent hole with a 1/16 inch or a #50 (.070 diameter) drill first and try it out.
This will be more in keeping with the original.
I might be tempted to walk the drill around in the hole to open up the hole size down where it intersects the bore to give the powder a better chanch of getting out a little into the vent hole as well. This would be kind of a poor mans way of creating the internal taper to facilitate ignition.
I guess the main thing I would be thinking is "If I mess it up, I can always drill it out and tap for a screw in style liner." and if it works good I won't have to do anything more!
If I did decide to go with a vent liner I would first use the 1/4-28 thread. I would choose this for three reasons.
First: it is a standard size (the standard sizes are 1/4-28 and 5/16-24).
Second: although a fine thread pitch is good, the real strength of a screw to resist pull out (or in this case blow out) is the length of the thread divided by the diameter of the thread. A ratio of 1 is ideal (1/4 engaged divided by 1/4 inch dia thread). In fact, a ratio larger than 1 doesn't gain you anything in pull out strength.
Now as the barrel wall is relatively thin and cannot be changed, to get the most blow out strength I would want a screw thread which is rather small to keep this dia/length ratio as large as I could.
Third: By using the 1/4-28, if in my lifetime I ever wear out the hole or crossthread it at some future time, I can always rework it to the 5/16-24 size without any problem and still use a standard liner.
Before you drill any hole, drop a ramrod or something down the bore and determine where the face of the breech plug is and then transfer this depth to the outside of the barrel. Your hole should be at least 1/8 inch forward of the breech plugs face if you think you will need to use a 1/4 dia liner.
If it is closer than 1/8 it makes tap drilling and tapping a hole rather difficult. Needless to say, installing a 5/16 dia liner would be even more challenging.
This will be more in keeping with the original.
I might be tempted to walk the drill around in the hole to open up the hole size down where it intersects the bore to give the powder a better chanch of getting out a little into the vent hole as well. This would be kind of a poor mans way of creating the internal taper to facilitate ignition.
I guess the main thing I would be thinking is "If I mess it up, I can always drill it out and tap for a screw in style liner." and if it works good I won't have to do anything more!
If I did decide to go with a vent liner I would first use the 1/4-28 thread. I would choose this for three reasons.
First: it is a standard size (the standard sizes are 1/4-28 and 5/16-24).
Second: although a fine thread pitch is good, the real strength of a screw to resist pull out (or in this case blow out) is the length of the thread divided by the diameter of the thread. A ratio of 1 is ideal (1/4 engaged divided by 1/4 inch dia thread). In fact, a ratio larger than 1 doesn't gain you anything in pull out strength.
Now as the barrel wall is relatively thin and cannot be changed, to get the most blow out strength I would want a screw thread which is rather small to keep this dia/length ratio as large as I could.
Third: By using the 1/4-28, if in my lifetime I ever wear out the hole or crossthread it at some future time, I can always rework it to the 5/16-24 size without any problem and still use a standard liner.
Before you drill any hole, drop a ramrod or something down the bore and determine where the face of the breech plug is and then transfer this depth to the outside of the barrel. Your hole should be at least 1/8 inch forward of the breech plugs face if you think you will need to use a 1/4 dia liner.
If it is closer than 1/8 it makes tap drilling and tapping a hole rather difficult. Needless to say, installing a 5/16 dia liner would be even more challenging.
Guest
Good point about the liner dia., Zonie & 1/4"X28 would be better- I just wouldn't use a liner IF it wouldn't have 3 threads purchase. Hollowing it out from the inside is a good idea though. I wouldn't wag the drill as it would enlarge the hole onthe pan side - somehthing counterproductive to good ignition. Hollowed from inside will bring the powder to the pan. You don't want a kernal of powder in the hole as that slows ignition.
: In these large bores, pressure are VERY mild, compared to even .54 cal. In the .54 you can get pressures up to 15,000LUP with 150gr. 2F or so, but in the .69's and larger, you'd be hard pressed to get them as high as 8,000LUP. I can guarentee you won't like shooting that one ss it would take upwards of 180 or 200gr. 2F to get it. Using 1F for the .75, the pressures would be even lower. this is why .69's and larger RIFLES shoot so well with paper ctgs. My 14 Bore(.69)English Sporting Rifle would hold 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds. with 165gr. 2F and 480gr. RB in a double wrapp of typing paper. Rip the bottom off, stick it in the muzzle & by the time I got the rammer out, the powder had all drained (seconds) top the breech, ram the paper and ball down together and let her go. No burning paper due to no blow-by and terrific accuracy for 10 in a row. These were especially good for the special weapons hunt for moose as the temps ran right down to -56 several year when we were there. Even Mink oil and Bear's oil got hard & destroyed accuracy, but the paper ctgs. always shot centre. The point being, low pressures are created in large bores. When you get into the shotguns with long shot columns and several wads, the pressure are higher for the same bore due to the inceased drag in the bore, ie: up to 8,000LUP with 4.5drams & 1 1/8oz. or 1 1/4oz shot as per Lyman BPHandbook. With single ball, the pressure is much less even though the weight is the same.
Daryl
: In these large bores, pressure are VERY mild, compared to even .54 cal. In the .54 you can get pressures up to 15,000LUP with 150gr. 2F or so, but in the .69's and larger, you'd be hard pressed to get them as high as 8,000LUP. I can guarentee you won't like shooting that one ss it would take upwards of 180 or 200gr. 2F to get it. Using 1F for the .75, the pressures would be even lower. this is why .69's and larger RIFLES shoot so well with paper ctgs. My 14 Bore(.69)English Sporting Rifle would hold 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds. with 165gr. 2F and 480gr. RB in a double wrapp of typing paper. Rip the bottom off, stick it in the muzzle & by the time I got the rammer out, the powder had all drained (seconds) top the breech, ram the paper and ball down together and let her go. No burning paper due to no blow-by and terrific accuracy for 10 in a row. These were especially good for the special weapons hunt for moose as the temps ran right down to -56 several year when we were there. Even Mink oil and Bear's oil got hard & destroyed accuracy, but the paper ctgs. always shot centre. The point being, low pressures are created in large bores. When you get into the shotguns with long shot columns and several wads, the pressure are higher for the same bore due to the inceased drag in the bore, ie: up to 8,000LUP with 4.5drams & 1 1/8oz. or 1 1/4oz shot as per Lyman BPHandbook. With single ball, the pressure is much less even though the weight is the same.
Daryl
Guest
A number of years ago, my Bro re-conditioned a few Brown Bess - what a wonderful journey into history that was. They wre 3 different patterns with one being the earliest one. it was a full .80 cal, 9 guage - what a thumper that would be with a proper fitting ball. The 1790 period(India pattern?) was also .80 cal. There was a LOT of leeway for the makers at that time. The American Government was the one to 'tighten' the guage parameters by 1820.
Daryl
Daryl
squirejohn
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Daryl - Your reply re pressure being greater with shot,wads etc vs a single round ball is interesting. Back in the 1970's I think, there was a smoothbore trade gun or shotgun advertised in Muzzleblast that stated somthing to the effect - "for use with shot only". Why do you suppose, if the pressure is lower with a roundball, they recommended shot only? Could it have something to do with choke?
A Brown Bess has no choke that I know of except when you choke on the cloud of smoke from shooting it... :winking:
"Isn't it great..."
If the load of shot weighs more that a single round ball, this would cause the pressure to be greater...
Example: a .735 round ball weighs 545 grains...
1 1/2 ounce of shot weighs 656 grains...
1 1/4 ounce of shot weighs the same as the .735 round ball, the shot load also has the wad and over powder & over shot card weights to push as well, adding to the pressure...
"Isn't it great..."
If the load of shot weighs more that a single round ball, this would cause the pressure to be greater...
Example: a .735 round ball weighs 545 grains...
1 1/2 ounce of shot weighs 656 grains...
1 1/4 ounce of shot weighs the same as the .735 round ball, the shot load also has the wad and over powder & over shot card weights to push as well, adding to the pressure...
Guest
As the normal all-round projectile for a Trade Gun is a ball, it would be rather odd to say it was for shot only even when considering there's no choke. It must have been a shotgun they were talking about and due & to a choked muzzle.
: The normal HEAVY modern BP 12 bore shot charge is 1 1/2 ounces, 1/4 ounce heavier than a ball for the 12 bore(.715) As well, the weight of wads & bearing surface add to the pressure building of the heavy shot charge. It is possible the heavy shot charge with wads weighs closer to 1 3/4 ounces than 1 1/2oz + has the long bearing surface to help build pressure. The ball, weighing 1 1/4 ounce or 545gr.(approx)would be producing much less pressure. Lyman lists just under 6,000LUP for a 1 1/2ounce load with 3 3/4 drams(103gr. 2F GOEX)& just under 7,000 when using the same load with all fiber and card wads. Obviously the cards produce more pressure than the plastic. As well, a paper ctg. isn't by-passed by the powder flame and pressure in the 12 or 14 bore, unlike a paper ctg. in a smaller, high pressure rifle barrel. Try it if you don't believ it. Use a full pressure load in your .45 or .50 with a couple wrapps of paper around the ball. Shove this donw on top of the powder and touch it off. When you find the paper, was it gas-cut? or is it on fire. Neither happened with the large bore guns, rifle or smoothbore. Ain't it GREAT!
: I also found the 14 bored rifle would shoot WW balls, with the same .015 patch without blowby. That's also something the small bores can't do. WW balls do have better penetration.(Moose Tested)
: We have found a .684 patched WW ball, so it could be pushed 'just' through the choke, loaded in a modern shotshell, to develope faily good accuracy to 50yds. The accuracy through a full choke was in the relm of 5" & power to challenge the 12 bore elephant rifles of the late 1800's(actually more so) - all from your favourite m870 with much less pressures than trap loads.(and much more recoil-HA)
Daryl
: The normal HEAVY modern BP 12 bore shot charge is 1 1/2 ounces, 1/4 ounce heavier than a ball for the 12 bore(.715) As well, the weight of wads & bearing surface add to the pressure building of the heavy shot charge. It is possible the heavy shot charge with wads weighs closer to 1 3/4 ounces than 1 1/2oz + has the long bearing surface to help build pressure. The ball, weighing 1 1/4 ounce or 545gr.(approx)would be producing much less pressure. Lyman lists just under 6,000LUP for a 1 1/2ounce load with 3 3/4 drams(103gr. 2F GOEX)& just under 7,000 when using the same load with all fiber and card wads. Obviously the cards produce more pressure than the plastic. As well, a paper ctg. isn't by-passed by the powder flame and pressure in the 12 or 14 bore, unlike a paper ctg. in a smaller, high pressure rifle barrel. Try it if you don't believ it. Use a full pressure load in your .45 or .50 with a couple wrapps of paper around the ball. Shove this donw on top of the powder and touch it off. When you find the paper, was it gas-cut? or is it on fire. Neither happened with the large bore guns, rifle or smoothbore. Ain't it GREAT!
: I also found the 14 bored rifle would shoot WW balls, with the same .015 patch without blowby. That's also something the small bores can't do. WW balls do have better penetration.(Moose Tested)
: We have found a .684 patched WW ball, so it could be pushed 'just' through the choke, loaded in a modern shotshell, to develope faily good accuracy to 50yds. The accuracy through a full choke was in the relm of 5" & power to challenge the 12 bore elephant rifles of the late 1800's(actually more so) - all from your favourite m870 with much less pressures than trap loads.(and much more recoil-HA)
Daryl
squirejohn
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That makes sense. The advertisement was probably for a shotgun and not a trade gun per se. The so called warning "for shot only" apparently wasn't a warning in the sense that it was unsafe to shoot roundball - but perhaps it had a choke and/or an unusual bore size and therefore commercially mfg. balls or molds weren't available. As a consequence, although it wasn't unsafe to shoot a roundball, but whatever "off-size" ball could be loaded, it probably wouldn't shoot it very well. Just a guess on my part & maybe repeated use of roundballs in a shotgun could mess up the choke.
Guest
As long as the ball and patch pass eeasily thorugh the choke, there shouldn't be much of a problem. The only one I can think of, is that with a pure lead ball, there will be some obturation of the ball, enlarging it somewhat. This is why we used WW balls in the 12bore duck guns. The patched balls were of a size that would pass the full choke of .690". As well, those who shoot large bored guns, smooth or rifled may find a lod that shoots as well as a pure lead ball with WW balls. WheelWeights are much easier to come by in some areas, and casting 500gr. of pure lead per shot reduces the 'store' considerably. I found in the 14 bored rifle that wheel weight balls shot just as well as pure lead especially in paper ctgs. With a .020" patch, they were a bit tight, but with .018" they wre just fine. With charges over 3 drams, the .015" patch burned through due to no obturation of the hard ball. The penetration on game is much better, and at almost .69 cal, they don't need to expand. the non-expanding ball makes a 3" tubular hole through the lungs, yet will smash the off shoulder and exit. The .75 rifle shooting a .735ball at 620gr., will smash both shoulders with 130gr.2F.
Daryl
Daryl
Daryl:
You must have some mighty big ducks in your area to have to use a 500 grain round ball in your 12bore duck guns... :winking: :haha:
Or are they called duck guns because you have to yell "DUCK" whenever you swing the long barrel to shoot?
::
Guest
When hunting the spotted fowl, one might tread upon the tiger's tail. Some guys regualarly get their moose while duck hunting up here. It isn't quite legal, due to the fact the government thinks a 480gr. round ball at 1,500fps isn't powerful enough to harvest a moose with a 2 1/2'' lung/heart kill area.
: Too many times, we've been sitting in the duck blind and had a big bull or cow and long yearling calf walk by, stop look at the deeks, looks at us, only 5 yards away, then walk on.
Daryl
: Too many times, we've been sitting in the duck blind and had a big bull or cow and long yearling calf walk by, stop look at the deeks, looks at us, only 5 yards away, then walk on.
Daryl
Guest
Quite exciting - and well within the range of any smoothbore - even a single or two barreled modern-type one. Best to 'check the sights! THAT elephant load really make's 'em come & that's where the power of a Round Ball really opens the eyes.
Daryl
Daryl
Thanks a lot guys! :curse:
Here I was, finally got my decision making down to 3 Bess' and along comes Heritage. Okay, I figured non-shootable and passed. Came back here, read some more. Now I've got to go and "investigate" some more. ::
I'm still thinkng "Trade Musket",,,,,,, but it's getting "blurred" :curse:
As Arnold said, "I'll be back." :boohoo:
Here I was, finally got my decision making down to 3 Bess' and along comes Heritage. Okay, I figured non-shootable and passed. Came back here, read some more. Now I've got to go and "investigate" some more. ::
I'm still thinkng "Trade Musket",,,,,,, but it's getting "blurred" :curse:
As Arnold said, "I'll be back." :boohoo:
Guest
Trade Musket I had one of Curly G's.in 12 bore. Because it weighed in the range of 6 lbs., it literally smacked the manure out of me. I'm 200lbs. and 6'1". Shooting that one destroyed my flint shooting for about 20 years.
Daryl
Daryl
davidthered
40 Cal.
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Being a re-enactor, I have had a chance to see/hold a Heritage musket. Not bad, but quite heavy, much heavier than Pedersoli Bess.
For my money ($610) I'm waiting delivery on a Loyalist Arms 1728 Brown Bess. Comes with sling, bayonet, hammer cover. It is supposed to be more true to period than Heritage (Discriminating General) and slimmer/lighter too. The steel Heritage uses is over-kill, and makes the gun barrel heavy. Check them out at Loyalist Arms
I will post here when I get it and let you all know.
For my money ($610) I'm waiting delivery on a Loyalist Arms 1728 Brown Bess. Comes with sling, bayonet, hammer cover. It is supposed to be more true to period than Heritage (Discriminating General) and slimmer/lighter too. The steel Heritage uses is over-kill, and makes the gun barrel heavy. Check them out at Loyalist Arms
I will post here when I get it and let you all know.
