Browning a barrel

[Cowboy]

Have a question for you Gun Builder's Bench guy's.

First off a little background. I have always used LMF to brown my barrel's with. Always properly prepped the barrel prior to applying the solution and going through the process. Always had excellent results until this current barrel.

I finished the barrel in question and achieved the desired color I wanted. I then neutralized the rusting process by using hot tap water and baking soda. Then I applied a thin coat of Renaissance wax. Came out looking really good!

Put the barrel back on the stock and put the muzzleloader away. Pulled it out the next day to check on it. Took a white washcloth and ran it down the flats of the barrel and to my surprise I picked up a lot of rust! Apparently I didn't stop the rusting process with the baking soda.

Ended up carding off the rust and applied a thicker coat of Ren-wax and put it away. Checked it again the next day. The barrel is still bleeding out rust.

I'm thinking about stripping off the wax and going through the baking soda process again?

Never had this problem with any other barrel that I have ever refinished before. This one has sort of stumped me? :youcrazy:

My question would be, Have any of you experienced a barrel that for some reason or another you couldn't neutralize the rusting process? Also, I was thinking about maybe leaving the baking soda solution on the barrel to dry and form a film prior to removing it?

Would appreciate your input on what you think my next move should be.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Vaino]

LMF browning solution is very strong and I've found that a slurry of baking soda doesn't neutralize the rust or stop the rusting process. So....I now use hardware store ammonia which does "kill" the rusting action.

I use a fixture which orients the bbl horizontally and "paint" the ammonia on while rotating the bbl. I let it dry and then apply more ammonia. Usually 3 cycles is sufficient, but had one bbl that req'd 6 cycles because the rust was too thick. W/ this bbl, I eventually used green Scotchbrite to break through a crust and then applied more ammonia and the bbl not only looked better but the rusting process was definitely "killed".

This fixture is also used for applying the LMF.....Fred

 

[Eric Krewson]

I had the same problem with my last gun. I used ammonia twice, lye once and baking soda once and my barrel was still rusting a little.



I finally wiped it down with WD-40, applied Barricade and then a coat of Renaissance wax, I put my rifle together and forgot about it.

I am pretty sure I over treated the barrel with LMF having put 5 coats on initially.

After all was said and done I had one very deep brown barrel and hardware.

 

[mauserdad]

I am preparing to brown a CVA barrel using Birchwood Casey Plum Brown. So far the information that I have been able to find on the internet instructs to heat the barrel. Any advice on how to heat the barrel uniformly to apply the finish? Any other tricks you all might know on using this solution? Thanks

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Yep...,

I tried the "torch" method but the different temps along the length of the barrel gave me different results. yuk. So I tried another method.

Get yourself a patch of ground where you can lay a bed of charcoal briquettes. I did this several times with briquettes and no worries, but I think if you used hardwood charcoal you'd get too much heat. Lay the briquettes in a line about 3-4 deep, and the length of the barrel. Light them and after the fuel is burned off and they are starting to build up a layer of ash, suspend the barrel over top of the briquettes by a few inches. I used a fire set, and an S hook in the tang screw hole and a hook at the muzzle made from a piece of brass coathanger so as not to marr the steel.

As soon as the barrel was hot enough to make water sizzle and evap fast..., I applied the BC plumb brown. IF the barrel gets so hot the water jumps like a griddle used for pancakes... the barrel is getting too hot. I got a uniform temp and a uniform finish..., and don't breathe in the steam from the solution when it's applied to the steel. :nono: I followed the directions for multiple coats, used hot-pot gloves and goggles. When done I rinsed the barrel, put it back on the fire to get a little bit of heat, then rubbed in 30 weight motor oil. I did four barrels this way and the finish was good.

I was pretty young at the time, and got impatient with one barrel, and put it directly on the burning briquettes to speed up the heating. :shake: Well a soldered-on front sight fell off the barrel when I did this, 'cause it got too hot and did so fast. :redface: It was a barrel on a CW Zouave repro that a friend wanted me to do for him..., he liked the previous barrels that I had done. Well as mentioned I caused more work to be done by trying a "shortcut".


Three are probably more precise methods out there so you may want to wait for other replies, but that's how I did it with BC solution. I didn't know about LMF solution at the time, and I also didn't know about using a "steam box" that a builder up the road uses, or other cold-browning methods either.

LD

 

[Scota4570]

is made of nitric acid, ferric chloride, copper sulphate and water. You can neutralize the acid with baking soda or ammonia. You will have the chloride and sulphate salts in the rust you made. Plain water will dissolve those. The water rinse instead of baking soada will dilute the acid to the point of it being gone too. There is no reason to use ammonia and baking soda. Ammonia, by itself will cause rust.

After rust happens. Perhaps count on carding for a couple of days and accept that it is part of the process.

 

[Crewdawg445]

Birchwood Casey Plum Brown.

I'd recommend LMF... Personally plum brown is a pain to work with for the exact reasons LD mentioned... heat. LMF does exactly as plum brown and is simplistic in use, and gives a very nice finish. Granted PB is usually available at most box stores and I think it's accessibility is why many use it. However ordering LMF and waiting for it is worth the hassle IMO, take it for what it's worth, I've browned countless barrels and hardware and LMF is indeed the stuff!

 

[ehoff]

If your using baking soda, purchase a new box instead of stealing it from the kitchen.

 

[mauserdad]

Thanks Gents for all the good advice

 

[Zonie]

I didn't see anywhere in your description of what you did that said you applied oil to the browning.

Wax alone is not enough to stop the rusting process so, if you didn't oil the barrel before applying the wax, that (IMO) is the cause of your problems.

Rust in all of its forms (red, blue/black or brown is a porous material that is in intimate contact with the bare steel under it.

By applying oil to it, the rust not only soaks up the oil but it carries it all the way down to the un-rusted steel, keeping oxygen away from it.

Without oxygen, the steel can't rust any more.

 

[Cowboy]

Yes Zonie, I did indeed apply 3-1 oil to the barrel and let it sit overnight to cure. Then wiped it down to take any rust off that might have blead through. Finally I applied the Ren-wax and put it away. Rechecked the next day and discovered the rust bleeding through.

As of now I have carded the barrel and applied a very heavy film of a baking soda paste that has now dried on. I'm thinking about letting it sit overnight with the solution on.

Also, when I applied the baking soda solution on this time I really worked it in with my fingers which produced an orange colored slurry.

Sorry I didn't mention curing the barrel with oil prior to applying the wax.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Cowboy]

Ok, I had a second thought that came to mind. The baking powder solution had thoroughly dried to a thick crusted layer. I ended up washing and scrubbing the barrel down with warm tap water with a little Dawn dishsoap. Then thoroughly dried and coated the barrel with WD-40 to get rid of any traces of leftover moisture.

Finally, I applied a very heavy coat of 10w40 motor oil to the barrel. Going to let it sit for 8 hours. Will then remove the oil and then apply a generous amount of wax to the barrel.

I'll then check it the following day and see where I stand.

I will give an update on the results then.

In closing I think that Zonie probably touched on my problem here. Even though I did apply the 3-1 oil to cure it prior to waxing, I'm thinking that it wasn't a heavy enough of a layer to soak down to the surface layer of steel. Hopefully with the motor oil which is much thicker than the 3-1 I used before, it will soak all the way through thus killing any chance of oxygen creating the rust issues.

I'll let ya all know!

Rerspectfully, Cowboy

 

[Eric Krewson]

I had a long discussion on the long rifle site about my continued rusting. The general consensus of opinion was it will stop on its own when the acid was finally depleted, and it did.

 

[Cowboy]

Eric, Thanks for your input! That's nice to know. Was wondering what I was going to do if this last attempt doesn't work? :idunno: I guess I'd continue to wipe it down until the acid is depleted like you've mentioned.

Anyway, The barrel still has a thick layer of motor oil on it. Going to clean the barrel up really good and apply the Ren-wax later this afternoon. We'll see what tomorrow brings?

Respectfully, Cowboy :thumbsup:

 

[Vaino]

"Killing" the LMF browning process isn't rocket science.....it's such an easy procedure when using ammonia. But, the "modern mindset" evidently doesn't readily accept simple solutions.....Fred

 

[M. De Land]

I usually give them one baking soda wash, rinse thoroughly in warm water,dry out and wipe them down with Outer's gun oil.
I then just put them away and all is well.

 

[Cowboy]

Fred, This isn't my first rodeo when it comes to browning barrels. I do have a good number under my belt already. It's only the first that I've had trouble stopping the rusting process.

Always used baking soda in the past and never had a problem until now. When all else fails follow the directions. That's what I've always done and it has always worked beautifully until I ran into this one. Will keep your method in mind for future project's. Thank you!

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[Pete G]

The two oils you listed are lubricating oil for machinery and are formulated differently that those formulated for corrosion protection. There is a certain amount of corrosion prevention in any oil, but some are much better than others. The military has gone to Break Free CLP for almost all applications and has had good results.

I am on Fred's side when it comes to using ammonia for acid neutralization. It has worked well for as long as I can remember using it. Early on I tried the baking soda solution and got the same problems of after rust. Have not had that since switching to the ammonia.

 

[wulf]

Hi Zonie...what do you think about using Plumb Brown
in a 'sweat box"? I have a couple barrels to do and
I don't like the heating method.

 

[Zonie]

I've browned several barrels and locks with Plum Brown but I always used heat to make it react.

I have no idea how it would work in a sweat box without heat but I would expect it to work poorly if at all.

The few times I applied PB without any heat it didn't even start to brown steel.
It just lay there looking at me.

Although Plum Brown has 1%-5% Nitric acid in it it also contains 1%-5% copper chloride.

IMO, unless the steel has been heated to between 250 and 300 degrees F. in my experiance, PB won't work.

Now that we've gotten side tracked, PB also requires the steel to be absolutely, totally free of any trace of oil or wax or it won't work.

Also, the free copper in it will deposit itself on the steel if the metal isn't above 250°F.
If the copper forms, it will protect the underlying steel from rusting at all so it has to be completely sanded off.

If you don't like the heating that PB requires, switch to the Laurel Mountain Browning fluid.
It does work fine. It just requires humidity and time.