Build a Hawken or?

[Herb]

Graham, I always enjoy your posts and the depth of your knowledge. The Bridger barrel has a slight taper to it. I measured it at the Helena museum last September at 1.185 ahead of the snail and 1.120 at the muzzle. I just looked at my photos I took of Greg Roberts tracing and measurements of the Bridger when they had it at the GRRW in 1975, and he shows 1.175 ahead of snail and 1.125 at muzzle. Carl Walker who handled the Bridger Hawken at the GRRW and built some of their commemoratives told me the barrel is not tapered. Carl said you can make that much difference with a file. That is half the thickness of a dime per side in 32 5/8", the plug added another half inch to 33 1/8" per Greg. Doc White shot the Bridger Hawken at the Ft Bridger Rendezvous and I think the bore is about .52 caliber. There are seven lands and grooves. One land is cut half away from the breech about half the length of the bore where the cutter got out of the groove and rode up on the land. The muzzle is not square according to Greg's drawing, though I did not notice that.

 

[galamb]

Hello Herb,

and yes, there is more than a few who DO NOT consider a profile tapered or swamped until the change is greater than 1/16".
(have had this discussion with Peter Alexander - he is on the "not tapered/swamp side"

 

[Doug Lykins]

I find it interesting that Kentucky rifles and others that are generally thought of as "eastern" rifles, used in thick woods, have long barrels, 42", maybe more.
The Bridger Hawken as well as other "plains" rifles normally have shorter barrels and these were used in the open country of the west. Perhaps so the rifle could be carried in a scabbard on a horse? Or maybe in the later years they realized the extra foot of barrel didn't gain much in terms of performance? :idunno:

 

[galamb]

A lot had to do with "horses" - shorter rifles handled better.

Plus, "eastern" rifles were more slender/delicate - the shorter plains rifles were certainly more robust.

A longer barrel does have advantages. The longer sight radius makes just about any shooter "more accurate".

Plus on any given barrel a longer barrel almost certainly increases the velocity of the projectile over a shorter barrel all else being equal.

Increased velocity gives you a little more thump (but that is a "small number" when you are talking black powder) and it does flatten the trajectory a bit (again, not enough to compensate for a "miss", but could add a foot or two to the point blank range).

However, those minor performance increases have to be weighed against the overall functionality of the rifle.

A 54 cal with a 48" barrel weighing 25 pounds might shoot flatter and harder with almost no "felt" recoil even with a max load, but you wouldn't want to carry it very far in dense woods.

Everything is a "trade off" or compromise.

 

[Billnpatti]

Building a hooked breach Hawken style rifle is a difficult thing for anyone to do and is almost out of the reach of the beginner. Since you have the parts, you might try contacting Mike Lange in Indiana and asking him if he will build it for you using your parts. He will likely be the most reasonable skilled builder that you will find.
http://mikelange.homestead.com/Testimonials.html

 

[Doug Lykins]

ON ICE Several have expressed the same concern and that is why I posted the thread. I'm thinking I'll hold onto the parts until I gain a little more confidence. Maybe build an easier gun first. Building a rifle is a lot of fun, that I know, but it's no fun at all if I mess it up.
Thanks all for your input.

 

[Col. Batguano]

If you follow all the steps, a beginner can do a hooked breech as well as he could another more simple gun. It's just going to take him a lot longer to do, because of the lack of experience. Every step along the way will need researching.

As an extreme example: an experienced person might start their stock shaping with spoke shaves and big gouges, progressing ever finer as they approach the finished state, but a beginner might only use 220 grit sandpaper the whole time. Both will eventually get to the finish line, but one will inevitably be faster than the other. Maybe 120 hours for the build vs. 300 hours.

Sure building a gun is fun, and for most, a form or recreation. But if you analyze it, the real enjoyment we get from it comes from our own edification in the education we are getting. The finished product (or sub step within the build) is our grade in the course.

Basically, a hooked breech Hawken is like a graduate level course in accounting. Yes, a non-undergrad can take the course and pass it (after a great deal of struggle), but someone that already has an accounting degree will be able to do it more easily than someone that doesn't know what the basics are. In the end, education is about applied experience, and done in little steps.

 

[crockett]

I consider everyone on this forum the cream of the crop as far as muzzle loading so let's keep an open mind on the "short" western rifle.
The common belief is the plainsmen of the west were on HORSEBACK and required a shorter barrel and a larger ball than the eastern rifles, hence the Hawken rifle came into existence.
First off- I have no documentation one way or the other on this one but let's consider a few things.
1. A lot of eastern rifles were 50 caliber.
2. The eastern long hunter may have hunted on foot but moved about on a horse.
3. Nearly all mountain men used a "trade" rifle which was a "Kentucky" long rifle.
4. A lot of Hawken rifles had 39" barrels, they were actually pretty long.
5. The mountain men hunted buffalo on horseback SOMETIMES but most hunting was done on foot.
It is just a hunch with me but I'm wondering if this short rifle because of horseback travel is correct. I'm told there was a vast improvement in the manufacture of black powder, you could get away with a shorter barrel. Maybe that had something to do with the shorter Hawken rifle barrels. Still, most mountain men used a long rifle.

 

[Doug Lykins]

I don't disagree, but I really don't know. I'm guessing the fur trappers of the early-mid 19th century used whatever gun they could acquire and afford. No doubt many headed west with the long rifles they had at the time.

 

[galamb]

A lot of "earlier" Eastern rifles were 50 cal or larger. As larger game got "hunted out" the calibers fell.

By the time the Hawken brothers, Dimick, Henry etc were building rifles (appropriate for the mountains/plains) many many Eastern rifles were most likely sub-45 caliber - you didn't need a 50 when only birds and squirrels were the quarry.

I have specs on 29 original Hawken rifles.

The ones built by "Jake and Sam" had (predominately) longer barrels, on average, than those built later by Sam alone.

It is difficult and dangerous to try and generalize Hawken rifles because each was "distinct", but based on the data that I have I could draw a couple of conclusions (in general).

Rifles built by J&S generally had barrels in the 38" range with calibers of 52/54 somewhat typical.

Sam favoured somewhat shorter barrels with 34'ish inches being common. Most of the S Hawken examples I have notes on were 54 caliber although one 52 and a couple of 50's are noted.

The "shortest" UNALTERED barrel I have notes on is a 30", 50 cal built by Sam.

The "longest" barrel is a 44", 36 cal built by Jake before he teamed up with Sam in St. Louis and is "very much" an eastern style rifle.

The longest barreled "plains rifles" I have notes on were barrels about 39" long.

One was the 56 cal "swamped" barrel built for Sublette by Jake and Sam, and the other two were full stocks built by Sam alone one being a 50 cal and the other a 43 cal.

Now there may have been a few hundred rifles built during the life of the shop, with one or both brothers building there, so my stats are just a small sampling and may not be representative of the majority or even many of their rifles.

 

[MSW]

I consider everyone on this forum the cream of the crop as far as muzzle loading so let's keep an open mind on the "short" western rifle.
The common belief is the plainsmen of the west were on HORSEBACK and required a shorter barrel and a larger ball than the eastern rifles, hence the Hawken rifle came into existence.
First off- I have no documentation one way or the other on this one but let's consider a few things.
1. A lot of eastern rifles were 50 caliber.
2. The eastern long hunter may have hunted on foot but moved about on a horse.
3. Nearly all mountain men used a "trade" rifle which was a "Kentucky" long rifle.
4. A lot of Hawken rifles had 39" barrels, they were actually pretty long.
5. The mountain men hunted buffalo on horseback SOMETIMES but most hunting was done on foot.
It is just a hunch with me but I'm wondering if this short rifle because of horseback travel is correct. I'm told there was a vast improvement in the manufacture of black powder, you could get away with a shorter barrel. Maybe that had something to do with the shorter Hawken rifle barrels. Still, most mountain men used a long rifle.

well said ... by way of my two cents worth, I think it's important to remember that the 'mountain man' is not a monolithic 'cultural hero' mega- character, but rather a collection of individuals, each with their own individual motivations and their own individual expectations ... they brought with them their own sense of what would work best ... 'gun fashion' if you will, and this was what worked for them at that point in time and within their individual expectations.

therefore, it may be a mistake to make sweeping generalizations about mountain men, or the gear they used.

just my two cents worth: free advice, and doubtless well worth the price!

 

[crockett]

What I've found from my reading is that I always thought a long hunter and a mountain man were very different type woodsmen but the more I read the more I was surprised at a lot of similarities, such as they both traveled on horseback, hunted on foot. One packed deer hides on a pack animal, the other beaver plews. Originally I thought a long hunter ventured into the wilderness on foot.
In any event on the short barrel because mountain men traveled on horses. After a lot of reading it seems that most mountain men carried trade rifles with 42-44" barrels. As I said, it is just a hunch but I'm wondering if better quality black powder brought about shorter barrels.