I often wonder why this is the response from many people when someone specificaly asks about whether something is or is not PC/HC about/on the gun they are building, I suspect they are aware that they will not be prosecuted for doing something or useing parts that were not used in the past, this type of question is pretty self explanitory and would be best answered by relivant information from a historical viewpoint as I see it.What would cause one to throw out the do what you want advise under such a circumstance, it is like having one ask what is the typical barrel length for a golden age long rifle and someone else answers...blue.
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Build it the way you liked, it's your gun.
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I think that a lot of people on this forum aren't H/C or P/C correct. Some people may ask if the Lyman GPR is correct. Of course it is neither a H/C or a P/C Hawken.
Some people have a ton of money to spend others have a little. They are all shooting side locks whether it is flint or cap. Just the fact that they're not shooting an inline should mean something.
So yeah, If your building a kit gun or own a production gun that can't be PC/HC leave it in the white or brown it or blue it. What ever works for you. I do agree that people shouldn't give advice on PC/HC guns with no documentation or basis for their opinion.
Some people have a ton of money to spend others have a little. They are all shooting side locks whether it is flint or cap. Just the fact that they're not shooting an inline should mean something.
So yeah, If your building a kit gun or own a production gun that can't be PC/HC leave it in the white or brown it or blue it. What ever works for you. I do agree that people shouldn't give advice on PC/HC guns with no documentation or basis for their opinion.
jimmytheshank
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Well, to help answer your question TG, and to help clarify to the rest of the guys here in the forums why I take that stand. The reason I say that a person should make a rifle the way they want if they're not too concerned with it being HC/PC, is not to show disrespect to the tradition, or to pooh-pooh the opinions of those who believe strongly in the craft of gunbuilding and the schools that they try to follow. My reason for saying this is so that a person can make something original that is a work of art and while BASED on traditional architecture, allows a person to use his own imagination to achieve what he really desires. To give an example, and I hope you dont mind me using you as an example Zonie take a look at Zonie's guns. Each one of them was BASED on a particular school and a particular style. But the use of inlays and the AMOUNT of inlays was all his imagination. I love the lehigh rifles. But I like LONG barrels of 46" and 52" and I like silver vs. brass. Is there anything wrong if I have rifles made that way? Again, I'm not spitting on anyones beliefs. It just seems to me that if your willing to pay who knows how much for a beautiful gun, you should get what you want. Red has always been the traditional color of a firetruck. But we have ones in this country painted white, slime lime, and yellow. Is it traditional? Nope. Is it pretty? :hmm: I guess. But it's STILL a fire truck. And, it still carries on the noble tradtional it was built for and is admired by many for what it represents. ( I am happy mine is red though) :grin: I dont tell people to make or do anything to intentionally offend others. But, a person should have the ability to make what he wants even if it's not 100% PC/HC unless the person REALLY wants to be 100% PC/HC. Then thats another ballgame. One thing I DON"T try to do is discourage a person intentionally, from trying to follow the traditions as closely as possible .
I guess my point is if some one ASKS about whether something is PC/HC or not on a gun he is building, why would another say that it doesn't matter, build it like you want, this happens almost every time someone asks for PC/HC factor guidence on gunbuilding/purchasing.
jimmytheshank
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Ah,..........well, I guess I can see where that constant response would start getting old. :hmm:
It's a fair question. I agree, you see that response quite a bit, I just don't get excited about it too much. Often when I see people asking what is HC, its reasonably clear they aren't seeking particular and excrutiating details of what would be HC. Rather, they are looking for general style guidelines and ideas how various parts, finishes, etc., will look on a certain style of firearm. I have done that myself. That is when the "do what you want" response comes out.
Or... when there doesn't seem to be one clear answer, I think "do what you want" would be appropriate to direct the questioner to use their best discretion.
nature of the forum :haha: Ya see that alot. Like how to do something. You will always get a "well I don't"
Age a gun = use it and it will age naturally
Polish brass = let it go dark
Make a lead wrap = only use leather
I can go on :haha: :shake:
Age a gun = use it and it will age naturally
Polish brass = let it go dark
Make a lead wrap = only use leather
I can go on :haha: :shake:
jimmytheshank
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J.D.,
Thats's probably the best answer here yet. :bow: Wish I'd thought of that. :hatsoff: :rotf:
Thats's probably the best answer here yet. :bow: Wish I'd thought of that. :hatsoff: :rotf:
paulvallandigham
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Tg: I have not seen this problem on this forum, very often. More often, someone is seen INSISTING that someone has to build a gun in a H/C way, or violate some unspoken and unwritten commandment.
Perhaps my own attitude is unduly shaped by the fact that I am left handed, and finding any left handed Historically Correct Original rifles or smoothbores is next to impossible. Whatever I build for myself will not, ipso facto, be Historically Correct!
Should I simply go over to the dark side and shoot those modern zip guns? Thank you, but NO Thank You. AM I to be forever barred from participating in Historical re-enactments because I shoot a LHed rifle? I think not.
The guns made today are made from such far superior materials that to even suggest that a Historically correct rifle made today with modern metals is anything close to what was used 250 years ago is a bad joke. Even the brass we use for pipes, and patch boxes is far superior to the quality of brass used back then.
For the informed, you could be carrying and shooting an M-14 and tell them its a Brown Bess, and they would not know the difference. That is not the point for most Traditionalists. I shoot a sidelock flintlock, albeit a LH flintlock, because you can find the rare LH flintlock in an orignal gun, but more importantly, the style of rifle, and the action type suits the period of time I want to portray. I have always made it clear to an audience of the uninformed that my gun is a Modern made replica of a TYPE OF GUN used back then, and its not an original firearm of that period.
My other prejudice that affects my tolerance of variations from exact copies of historical guns, is my training in Japanese Art Culture. As much as I admire Roccoco Art and the relief carving on golden age era replicas, when the carving, inlays, and overlays( patchboxes, etc.) cover up truly beautiful wood grain, I object! My brain revolts. I would rather see the pretty wood, and leave all the other stuff for a piece of wood that has no interesting grain, or fiddleback, to view. If the gunbuilder happens to be able to make a patch box lid out of part of the stock blank for the gun, so that even the lid has interesting grain to view, more power to him. I don't care if that particular gun style should come with an ornate brass patch box, and delicate side panels. I admit my heresy on this score, and refuse to insist that anyone else accept my point of view.
However, when someone posts a question and says he is not necessarily interested in a Historical exact replica of a particular school of firearms, and seeking assurance that he can use silver, instead of brass, or wood instead of metal, I don't have any problem telling him: " Its your gun. Build it the way you want it." On the other hand, if someone is going to represent his gun as a replica of a particular school of guns, then I think he has an obligation to make a faithful copy of that particular school of gun, down to the last brad and screw. That is why I admire the work of Mike Brooks so much: He makes his copies correct down to that last screw.
My LH fowler, on the other hand, is an AMERICAN Fowler. Its not an New England, or English, or Hudson Valley, or Kentucky Fowler. MY gunbuilder made it using some elements from many different schools of fowlers. The wrist is thicker than that of most fowlers, because he thought the German Jaeger stocks were stronger, at the wrist, and wanted to make sure this stock would last. The barrel is half octagon/half round, divided by a wedding band, as you might see on a French fusil, and on later fowlers. It has an English style lock. The buttplate, trigger guard and other metal are all steel, case hardened. It has no patch box, which is not unusual for smoothbores. I make NO pretense of my gun being a replica of any of the earlier schools of fowlers. But its a flintlock, and it shoots. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
Perhaps my own attitude is unduly shaped by the fact that I am left handed, and finding any left handed Historically Correct Original rifles or smoothbores is next to impossible. Whatever I build for myself will not, ipso facto, be Historically Correct!
Should I simply go over to the dark side and shoot those modern zip guns? Thank you, but NO Thank You. AM I to be forever barred from participating in Historical re-enactments because I shoot a LHed rifle? I think not.
The guns made today are made from such far superior materials that to even suggest that a Historically correct rifle made today with modern metals is anything close to what was used 250 years ago is a bad joke. Even the brass we use for pipes, and patch boxes is far superior to the quality of brass used back then.
For the informed, you could be carrying and shooting an M-14 and tell them its a Brown Bess, and they would not know the difference. That is not the point for most Traditionalists. I shoot a sidelock flintlock, albeit a LH flintlock, because you can find the rare LH flintlock in an orignal gun, but more importantly, the style of rifle, and the action type suits the period of time I want to portray. I have always made it clear to an audience of the uninformed that my gun is a Modern made replica of a TYPE OF GUN used back then, and its not an original firearm of that period.
My other prejudice that affects my tolerance of variations from exact copies of historical guns, is my training in Japanese Art Culture. As much as I admire Roccoco Art and the relief carving on golden age era replicas, when the carving, inlays, and overlays( patchboxes, etc.) cover up truly beautiful wood grain, I object! My brain revolts. I would rather see the pretty wood, and leave all the other stuff for a piece of wood that has no interesting grain, or fiddleback, to view. If the gunbuilder happens to be able to make a patch box lid out of part of the stock blank for the gun, so that even the lid has interesting grain to view, more power to him. I don't care if that particular gun style should come with an ornate brass patch box, and delicate side panels. I admit my heresy on this score, and refuse to insist that anyone else accept my point of view.
However, when someone posts a question and says he is not necessarily interested in a Historical exact replica of a particular school of firearms, and seeking assurance that he can use silver, instead of brass, or wood instead of metal, I don't have any problem telling him: " Its your gun. Build it the way you want it." On the other hand, if someone is going to represent his gun as a replica of a particular school of guns, then I think he has an obligation to make a faithful copy of that particular school of gun, down to the last brad and screw. That is why I admire the work of Mike Brooks so much: He makes his copies correct down to that last screw.
My LH fowler, on the other hand, is an AMERICAN Fowler. Its not an New England, or English, or Hudson Valley, or Kentucky Fowler. MY gunbuilder made it using some elements from many different schools of fowlers. The wrist is thicker than that of most fowlers, because he thought the German Jaeger stocks were stronger, at the wrist, and wanted to make sure this stock would last. The barrel is half octagon/half round, divided by a wedding band, as you might see on a French fusil, and on later fowlers. It has an English style lock. The buttplate, trigger guard and other metal are all steel, case hardened. It has no patch box, which is not unusual for smoothbores. I make NO pretense of my gun being a replica of any of the earlier schools of fowlers. But its a flintlock, and it shoots. :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
Russ T Frizzen
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tg, I agree with you. I think some people just miss the point and others suffer from an inability to comprehend what they read. The argument about it being impossible to build a replica of an original rifle because our modern materials are so much better or just different from the old time materials is usually tossed out by someone. The point is that we are trying to build a rifle that looks like the old time gun, and we can do this very nicely with modern materials. It is an insult to the makers of these fine and beautifully crafted guns that this sophomoric argument continues to be posited everytime that this discussion occurs.
Then we always get the " build it however you want to--it's your gun" response. If the poster wanted to do that, he wouldn't be asking questions regarding the HC/PC attributes of his gun. He obviously cares about history and heritage and should be encouraged and assisted to this end. The "Aw shucks, do it your way" answer is not a valid response to his question and offers him no help whatsoever.
It's not about money, and it is not about elitism. It is about a love of history and, in this case, a love for the beauty and elegance of the old guns. It is a simple concept and when a poster asks for help with the HC/PC aspects of a gun he is building, the responses should contain information pertaining to those aspects, not the vomiting forth of irrelevancies. Sadly, as you point out, this rarely happens.
Then we always get the " build it however you want to--it's your gun" response. If the poster wanted to do that, he wouldn't be asking questions regarding the HC/PC attributes of his gun. He obviously cares about history and heritage and should be encouraged and assisted to this end. The "Aw shucks, do it your way" answer is not a valid response to his question and offers him no help whatsoever.
It's not about money, and it is not about elitism. It is about a love of history and, in this case, a love for the beauty and elegance of the old guns. It is a simple concept and when a poster asks for help with the HC/PC aspects of a gun he is building, the responses should contain information pertaining to those aspects, not the vomiting forth of irrelevancies. Sadly, as you point out, this rarely happens.
My 2 cents worth. Too may people believe just because there is 1 example of a gun. They all have to be that way. If you like it. Shoot it, and carry it pride. We need to be more concerned with restrictive legislature, and the passing of the torch than to waste time bickering about someone's non pc or hc gun!
IMHO, the reason this has become a repeated remark "build it the way you want it", is simply because of the PC & HC enthusiest contiunously telling everyone basically it it ain't PC it is wrong........ By doing this & brow beating everyone about how wrong they are building their guns, they push people away from the sport rather than take them in & encourage them.
So I think allot of people are auto-remarking "do it the way you want it" and you are correct in saying at times it is not a correct response to the question asked.
So I think allot of people are auto-remarking "do it the way you want it" and you are correct in saying at times it is not a correct response to the question asked.
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I see this often also. Funny thing is that when someone asks "I'm building an 'X' gun, would ______ be appropriate?", that tells me that 'correct' IS what they want. So, telling them "do what you want" is like someone asking "I want to stain with AF, how do I apply it?" and someone responding "use AF". Just like the other day I asked my wife "how long will you be in town?" she replied "I'm only going to Walmart" :shake: . Drives me CRAZY!.
Stophel
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It's everywhere. I don't know for sure just what drives it. It can get rather virulent. I don't really understand it. Someone can simply ask, "what is period correct", and woe be to anyone who actually dares to answer...particularly if they give any kind of documentation.
"If they would have had it, they would have used it", "I'm using a loading block, I don't care what you say", "Who are you to say how he should build his gun? If he wants iron furniture, he should use iron furniture"....etc. (and it can get much worse).
If a person asks "is this lock correct for this type of gun?", and someone answers...especially if he says "no", then the onslaught begins.
"If they would have had it, they would have used it", "I'm using a loading block, I don't care what you say", "Who are you to say how he should build his gun? If he wants iron furniture, he should use iron furniture"....etc. (and it can get much worse).
If a person asks "is this lock correct for this type of gun?", and someone answers...especially if he says "no", then the onslaught begins.
Mike Brooks
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I just ignore it all these days, and try not to get involved with threads of that type unless specifically asked to. I don't really give a damn if somebody wants to paint their gun pink, as long as they leave me out of the debate about whether or not it "could" have been done. After all, they did have pink paint back then....... :wink:
Sooner or later all of the good people here that have put a lifetime of study into these old guns will just keep their mouths shut instead of taking the dressing down they get when they offer their information. :nono:
And, Paul V, you're missing the spirit of the game in my opinion.
Sooner or later all of the good people here that have put a lifetime of study into these old guns will just keep their mouths shut instead of taking the dressing down they get when they offer their information. :nono:
And, Paul V, you're missing the spirit of the game in my opinion.
Russ T Frizzen
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Maybe. But this has nothing to do with the topic we're discussing. If someone wants to know if something is correct for the gun he is building, that is question that the responses should be directed to. He does not need nor want to hear a lot of nonsense that is irrelevant to his needs. For example, if he asks if a Chambers late Ketland is the correct lock for his 1740 period fowler, he needs to be told no and given appropriate suggestions. Being told to build it any way he wants and to carry it with pride is of no help to him. He obviously cares about the correctness of his rifle and deserves the courtesy of a relevant response, not not some vapid anti-PC drivel that is of no use to anyone.
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I think the stick has two ends to it.
By all means, if someone wants to build a rifle or buy a rifle that's PC or HC, the advice of the students on this site is priceless.
But at the same time, folks who build or buy rifles that are NOT HC or PC don't need to be beaten about the ears for failing to pass their citizenship test for blackpowder shooting.
I truly value the PC/HC guns and the folks who know so much about them. But if I'm looking for a shooter that meets my special needs in a field gun, I'm likely to yawn in the face of the purists who castigate me for not being faithful to PC/HC.
Take the two 58 cals I acquired this year. Near as I can tell the GRRW Hawken is pretty darned faithful to some of the originals. Golly, it's a dandy looker and shooter, and it's certainly the one I'd pick for a rondy or if I was building a persona until I could build one myself that was even closer to the exact time period of my persona. Heck, the students on here would be a prized resource in the quest.
Then there's my other 58 cal. It's got a 26" barrel, a peep sight, sling swivels and a stock that is HC/PC for about 1970. Frankly it's ugly as sin and nothing I'd pack to a rondy or build a persona around unless the persona was a 1970's cadilac driving disco dancer.
But man, is it ever the perfect hunting gun for my conditions and localle. If I was going to build a new gun today, it would look more like this one than a fur trade era Hawken.
And anyone who wants to criticize it for not being HC/PC had better be ready to show me how to disco dance so my personna would be complete. :rotf:
By all means, if someone wants to build a rifle or buy a rifle that's PC or HC, the advice of the students on this site is priceless.
But at the same time, folks who build or buy rifles that are NOT HC or PC don't need to be beaten about the ears for failing to pass their citizenship test for blackpowder shooting.
I truly value the PC/HC guns and the folks who know so much about them. But if I'm looking for a shooter that meets my special needs in a field gun, I'm likely to yawn in the face of the purists who castigate me for not being faithful to PC/HC.
Take the two 58 cals I acquired this year. Near as I can tell the GRRW Hawken is pretty darned faithful to some of the originals. Golly, it's a dandy looker and shooter, and it's certainly the one I'd pick for a rondy or if I was building a persona until I could build one myself that was even closer to the exact time period of my persona. Heck, the students on here would be a prized resource in the quest.
Then there's my other 58 cal. It's got a 26" barrel, a peep sight, sling swivels and a stock that is HC/PC for about 1970. Frankly it's ugly as sin and nothing I'd pack to a rondy or build a persona around unless the persona was a 1970's cadilac driving disco dancer.
But man, is it ever the perfect hunting gun for my conditions and localle. If I was going to build a new gun today, it would look more like this one than a fur trade era Hawken.
And anyone who wants to criticize it for not being HC/PC had better be ready to show me how to disco dance so my personna would be complete. :rotf:
Mike Brooks
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I don't believe that happens here.
jimmytheshank
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You'd be surprised Mr. Brooks, you'd be surprised. When I was first getting into blackpowder, the movie "The Mountain Men" first came out and everyone's persona was to be an 1800's trapper and Hawken's were all the rage. Then "LOTM" came out and F&I clothing styles and early American guns were the thing. But never before had "making a gun the way you want it" been an issue till the past few years. As a matter of fact, there were a LOT of guns I saw at gunshows that looking back now, I KNOW they were'nt PC/HC. I dont come here to make enemies and I enjoy talking about a subject I really love , which is muzzleloaders. But I agree with the guys that say that there are a few here who are quick to state that the HC/PC way is the only way to go and anything else is an insult to our forefathers and is just a waste of money. I've had a gun to my face when one person didnt agree with me on something awhile back. So words dont bother me that much compared to that. But is it really nescessary to browbeat a person who likes what he likes? I didnt think so either but it happens a lot. Thats the only bad thing I've ever come to notice about this sport.
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