Build Questions

Okay folks, it's looking like I'm FINALLY going to be able to build that long-awaited longrifle!

Hence, I have some questions before I commit:

1 - I've read things that say stay away from inletting a swamped barrel on your first build, but I assume that is more referring to building from a blank, and not a pre-carve. If I order a "kit" from Track's or Pecatonica or Chambers with a swamped barrel, is the stock going to be inlet for the swamp already, and can I do this, or should I pick something with a straight barrel?

2 - I'm trying to go as early as possible, yet retain "longrifle" status. I want one with a long barrel, the longer the better. 42" minimum. I think I've narrowed my choices down to the Early Lancaster, or the Mark Silver Virginia. I want something, if possible, that won't be out of place at an F&I event. I'm not currently interested in a Jaeger, it has to be a long, slender rifle with a brass nosecap and a patchbox of either wood or brass. I also like the lines of a Lancaster. I want a straight comb, no Roman nose or curved lines from the comb or the wrist to toe. Fairly flat buttplate, with just a slight curve.

3 - Inlays and wire inlay - I'm guessing that I can still put inlays on an early rifle like this? How early did they start putting brass patchboxes on rifles such as these? What about wire inlay? I saw pics of a rifle where the builder had built a wooden patchbox, but then used wire inlay in a similar shape of a brass patchbox around the wooden lid. It was stunning. Would something like this make the gun non-PC?

4 - I think I'm going to order the set of Flex-Cut carving tools from Woodcraft. Flex-Cut Carving Kit I think the 11-piece kit would probably be a good starting point? Thoughts? I know Birddog6 (I think) uses these and really likes them? I will probably also need some sharpening advice down the road for them... :winking:

Man, I'm so stinkin' excited about this it ain't even funny! Long has been my wait!

:thanks:

 

[Birddog6]

My suggestions:

1: Buy a book & study it...... I suggest 'The Gunsmiths of Grenville County. Very good information here, very well explained & great details. I prefer the wire bound ones as they will lay flat open on the bench.

2: Decide on what Style ya want & stay with it, and stay basic. Forget the carving, inlays & etc. Learn to build the rifle first.... that is the MOST important and Main Objective. You can inlay & carve the H out of one , but if it is a crappy rifle, it is a inlaid carved crappy rifle, period. You cannot cover up major flaws & errors..... Build the rifle, concentrate on that, you can build more & fancier when you get better, and if you build one correctly you will be pleased with your work & you will do another one & another one & etc.

3: Go with a Precarve & don't worry about the swamped barrel & get it. It is just as easy as doing a straight barrel & the results are much more rewarding. IMHO.
Don't even think of making your first rifle from a blank. Build 4-5-6 rifles then do one from a blank if that really hits ya. After all, when it is all said & done, only you know it came from a blank as you can't tell a precarve from a blank when it is finished.

4: I would buy the kit from Jim Chambers. He had exceptionally good parts, he is extremely helpful & generous when/if you have a problem & he Really backs his parts....... Plus being a heck of a nice guy to talk to when you have a question on something & he is full of good reliable knowledge & has always been most helpful for me..
Now you may find a cheaper kit, but you will not find a Better kit. Go for the Quality on this, not price.

5: I would not buy the ? 11 piece Flex-Cut set as I would not use most of them. On a Precarve I would use basically 5 carving tools & the V parting tool about 50% of the time. I use these tools for just building the rifle, not for carving it. Well I use them for carving also but when I build a rifle I do almost all of my inletting with these Flex-Cut tools shown. So I suggest buying 5 Flex-Cuts (Sharp angled V, regular V, 3 rounded cutters, & the lil $12. sharpening block/kit they have for them. Then make a few scrapers from old small files & a cheap $6 set of carving tools from the fleamarket & etc. And last of all I would buy a Drill Point Jig/tool from Cains Outdoors (MSM) The one I show is a ol homemade one I made years ago, and Cains has one now on the market that is very similar in function as mine. The jig is advertised in Muzzleblasts and a well spent $39.95 or something close to that.

Good Luck ! :thumbsup:

 

I have the books, my wife bought me about $200 worth for my birthday back in March. The only one she didn't get was GGC, and that was because Track was out of stock at the time she ordered it. I will get it and read it before building.

I "assembled" a little Pedersoli Kentucky pistol back in January, and did some inlays on it, and by the time I finished the third inlay I was getting pretty comfortable with it, so I don't feel too intimidated about putting a couple of inlays on it, as long as they would be PC. As far as the carving goes, it's something I want to do... I may not do it on this rifle, but would like to, and of course, I would get some curly maple and practice until I felt comfortable putting gouge to gunstock. Still, your advice is heeded, and I might just limit it to practice for now and leave this rifle plain, which will be fine.

I'm definitely going with a precarve... no WAY am I even ready to think about building from a blank. I just mentioned it because of how it related to inletting the swamped barrel. You answered that question for me, which is what I thought, but wanted to confirm. Thanks.

I do like the Chambers kits, and will probably go that route, though I have to admit I'm also considering one from Pecatonica, because I can get a kit from them with grade 4 wood for the same price as a Chambers kit with plain wood. Would the quality difference in the kits be that drastic?

Excellent advice on the carving tools; that's what I will do. I will also pick up the little drill point tool from Cain's, rather than trying to butcher my Lyman case trimmer to do the same thing. ::

Birddog, thank you very much for the advice. It is greatly appreciated.
:redthumb:

 

I have not seen such a list of contridictions in some time.

You wish for the gun to be from as early an era as possible, yet have:
long slinder lines
resemble a Lancaster (no this, that, or the other)
have brass patchbox and nose cap
if necessary a non-swamped barrel
carry elaberate inlay and trim

Your desires do not mandate that such a gun exists. If you really want a PC gun one often must "settle" for what was actually available.

You are looking for a "golden age" federal style gun dated to a time frame appropriate for F&I use!

When you find a represenative example of what you are looking for I know of several nationally known collecters, writers and restorers that would really lke a chance to view the piece. Some of them have been looking for it for nearly 75 years.

:hmm:

Some will say that the gun must be an accurate copy of an existing gun. They will even say that using modern tools spoils the PC efort.

Others will say to build exactly what you want, dip it in polyutethine and to he!! with history!

Perhaps you can find something somewhere in the middle that pleases you.

 

[Birddog6]

Static: I have never set Chambers & Pecatonica kits side by side & looked at them in comparison.... They could well be identical, I would not know. Good chance the same company makes both their precarves.
However I do know Jim & I do know his quality of parts & etc., thus why I would chose him on a kit if I had limited experience of building.

I also think you need to narrow you thoughts on style of what ya want..... It is much easier to pick a rifle Style you like & just go for that..... Don't try to add into it things that don't exist or things you want to see. They are what they are........ If you buy the RCA books & the Kindig book you will have 75% of the photos & styles ya need to see to come up with what ya like.
Most likely you will end up building 3-4 rifles to cover all of your Wants, so don't try to Do It ALL in one step, this is a learning process, not a "buy the house of a lifetime deal"...... if you get my drift.

:imo:

 

I have not seen such a list of contridictions in some time.

You wish for the gun to be from as early an era as possible, yet have:
long slinder lines
resemble a Lancaster (no this, that, or the other)
have brass patchbox and nose cap
if necessary a non-swamped barrel
carry elaberate inlay and trim

Your desires do not mandate that such a gun exists. If you really want a PC gun one often must "settle" for what was actually available.

You are looking for a "golden age" federal style gun dated to a time frame appropriate for F&I use!

When you find a represenative example of what you are looking for I know of several nationally known collecters, writers and restorers that would really lke a chance to view the piece. Some of them have been looking for it for nearly 75 years.

:hmm:

Some will say that the gun must be an accurate copy of an existing gun. They will even say that using modern tools spoils the PC efort.

Others will say to build exactly what you want, dip it in polyutethine and to he!! with history!

Perhaps you can find something somewhere in the middle that pleases you.

Well, that's why I asked. Already got the OK on the swamped barrel, I already knew that was a requirement, and would have changed to a later gun if I needed to start with a straight barrel.

Do not the Early Lancaster rifles date back to 1760 or so? I thought they were beginning right around the time of the F&I war, towards the end. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. The Virginia rifle would be okay, correct? It is long, slender, and has a muzzlecap. To me, looks very similar to a Lancaster. I was leaning toward the Lancaster because it comes in .54, which is my caliber of preference. If it's not F&I correct, then perhaps I'll just deal with that, which would be okay.

I don't know about the elaborate trim and inlays... I would like some, but do not know how elaborate they would be. :: So did they simply do zero inlaying and carving prior to the Rev. War and the Golden Age? I know there are wheellocks that pre-date the F&I War that are pretty dang elaborate.

I have not done the extensive research that you guys have on these guns, which is why I'm asking the questions. I would like for the gun to be as PC as possible, and if that means I have to do a later timeframe, then so be it.

Thanks for the info!

 

Static: I have never set Chambers & Pecatonica kits side by side & looked at them in comparison.... They could well be identical, I would not know. Good chance the same company makes both their precarves.
However I do know Jim & I do know his quality of parts & etc., thus why I would chose him on a kit if I had limited experience of building.

I also think you need to narrow you thoughts on style of what ya want..... It is much easier to pick a rifle Style you like & just go for that..... Don't try to add into it things that don't exist or things you want to see. They are what they are........ If you buy the RCA books & the Kindig book you will have 75% of the photos & styles ya need to see to come up with what ya like.
Most likely you will end up building 3-4 rifles to cover all of your Wants, so don't try to Do It ALL in one step, this is a learning process, not a "buy the house of a lifetime deal"...... if you get my drift.

:imo:

Understood. Unfortunately, I don't have the RCA books, and I wish I did. Perhaps I should get those as well before ordering.

Thanks again for all the help guys.

 

[Packdog]

Static,
Birddog's first suggestion for getting the "Gunsmith of Grenville is a great place for you to start. The book uses several originals as examples and if you lack reference material it is a great source although in no way a substitute. Just a starting place. The whole ordeal of building and shooting is adictive like a drug and you will get sucked in wanting more information and more guns. :results:
I strongly second and/or third the suggestion of going with a precarve.
If you can find a place that has a selection of built guns then you can look and shoulder some different styles and that will help. It doesn't have to be a place that sells guns. Maybe there is a reenacting event around you somewhere. You'll find most are more than happy to show off and explain about their guns.
PD

 

[Birddog6]

I think buying the RCA books would be a good move for ya, as for the price of the RCA Volume I & Vol. II books compared to other books...... IMHO nothing even close to them covering such a wide field...
Hundreds of rifle photos, not photos of a few, hundreds of them.....
This would give you LOTS of ideas on dif. styles, inlays, when the rifles were built, calibers, over all lengths, just a huge amount of info there. I think they cost about ? $65. each & you can get them at Shumway Publishing direct or you can buy then from most of the parts venders.

:imo:

 

Yeah, the bug bit hard with the pistol, and when I finished it, I had this big empty hole in my gut because I didn't have a gun to work on now, so I've been taking antacid and wiping drool off my keyboard while I read about other's builds, and surfing Track and[url] flintlocks.com[/url], and Pecatonica... it's definitely a sickness.

I know the RCA volumes are must-haves, I was just not planning on getting them until later, but valid points abound, and I'm now thinking it would be money well spent if I had them to peruse prior to making my decision, though, at this point, honestly I think I'm pretty set on the Lancaster. It is simply the gun I have wanted for many, many years. Like what was mentioned before... go ahead and get what I want, and worry about adding other guns for other timeframes later. Lord knows this won't be my last build.

 

[Zonie]

If you do decide to go with a swamped barrel and order from Pecatonica, they only have a few stock types that they will inlet for the barrel.
I think they charge an extra $25 to inlet swamped barrels, so be sure to ask before you order your parts. (I assure you it is worth every penny of the cost).

I see nothing wrong with asking about a long, graceful, thin curved buttplate rifle with a straight ocragon barrel which would have been used prior to the French/Indian war as long as the person asking is truly interested.
How else can people learn that rifles of that era were not necessarly long, graceful, nor did they have a straight barrel? Many people do not know the thin curved buttplate was a later design.
Imparting knowledge is not always an easy thing to do, but I would hope that when we do try to enlighten our members, we try to educate in a friendly manner.

 

Jim, I know you've built a bunch of rifles from Pecatonica... have you built/examined any of the Chambers' kits?

I did the math, and with the additional price of the swamped barrel and the added inletting ($35), the additional $25 for the patchbox, and shipping, with a grade 3 stock would be $740.95. With a grade 4 stock would be $830.95. Their Early Lancaster comes with a Large Siler lock, and I can choose between a Getz, Colerain, or Green Mountain swamped barrel.

The Chambers Lancaster, with barrel from Buckeye (Rice, Getz, Long Hammock), with "Extra Fancy" wood (I can only assume that "Extra Fancy" wood would be on par with a grade 4 from Pecatonica), and a patchbox kit would run me about $950.

If the Pecatonica kits are close to the Chambers kits in quality, and from what I've read recently on the Pecatonica thread, they are, then I'm thinking I go with them and take the $120 or so that I saved and use it for books, tools, stain, etc.

Is that foolish thinking? Is the Chambers kit really that much better?

 

[rich pierce]

I'll be the outlier.
Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't even think about building a fine, expensive, PC, no holds barred early rifle for your first build. You simply lack experience. You don't have tools, are not familar with them, and learning to use them on a $900 parts set is almost guaranteed to yield a $500 gun from your first effort. Besides, you have not studied the originals enough to know what you really want or what would be a coherent piece of work. The kits will guide you and keep you from mixing parts that don't belong together (well, almost, as am still not convinced that a Siler lock is right for a pre-Revolutionary gun, but it has been used so for so many thousands of builds that i am swimming upstream on this one).

Let me share my experience. My first longrifle from scratch (no kit, no precarve, no parts set, needed to do everything and made 2/3 of the parts) is a mighty fine shooter. I had studied every book available (this was pre-RCA) and been to many gun shows, handled originals, took classes from Dixon on engraving, read, ate, breathed and drank longrifles. But I still got a dozen things wrong on that first rifle and this was AFTER putting together 4-5 kits and having very good facility with tools.

First build a simpler gun from a kit. By simpler I just mean a gun that is supposed to be plain and not made to the same standards as fine early colonial flintlock rifles. I suggest building a trade gun/musket/plain fusil or super-plain longrifle as your first attempt. Make your mistakes on a $500 parts set, learn how to do the basics of kit building (which is about 1/3 the skill set needed for scratch building) and have fun with your gun. Then work up to something appropriate for the F&I war period (who knows what that is except the Schreit rifle?) for your 4th build. By then you'll know what you want, will have studied the early rifles until you have them memorized like the books of the Bible. I am not blaspheming here but I know RCA 21, 22, 23 etc and 41, 42, and 43 like I know Matthew Mark Luke and John. You'll do the same and will be ready to build coherent pieces that pass muster.

Or not- just wanted to offer the other point of view. It is very possible to start with a "Early Lancaster" kit (for example) with all the right parts and end up with a well-built, accurate, dependable gun that any colonial rifleman would look upon and ask himself, "Did they make that in the West Indies?" We've all seen it and most of us have done it.

 

I'll be the outlier.
Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't even think about building a fine, expensive, PC, no holds barred early rifle for your first build. You simply lack experience. You don't have tools, are not familar with them, and learning to use them on a $900 parts set is almost guaranteed to yield a $500 gun from your first effort. Besides, you have not studied the originals enough to know what you really want or what would be a coherent piece of work. The kits will guide you and keep you from mixing parts that don't belong together (well, almost, as am still not convinced that a Siler lock is right for a pre-Revolutionary gun, but it has been used so for so many thousands of builds that i am swimming upstream on this one).

Ok, I'm definitely planning on starting with a kit. I hear you on the Siler, and at this point, I'm thinking it's not going to be a pre-Revolutionary gun, but more like a 1770-1790 type. I haven't studied originals much, but I do know what I really want, and that is a longrifle in .54 caliber with a straight comb, a 42" swamped barrel, a brass patchbox, muzzlecap, trigger guard, sideplate, and a flint lock with the best grade of curly maple stock I can afford. If it's not 100% PC, that's fine as this is my first, but I said I wanted to try to keep it as PC as possible.

Let me share my experience. My first longrifle from scratch (no kit, no precarve, no parts set, needed to do everything and made 2/3 of the parts) is a mighty fine shooter. I had studied every book available (this was pre-RCA) and been to many gun shows, handled originals, took classes from Dixon on engraving, read, ate, breathed and drank longrifles. But I still got a dozen things wrong on that first rifle and this was AFTER putting together 4-5 kits and having very good facility with tools.

Don't worry, I don't plan on building a rifle from scratch for a long time, if ever.

First build a simpler gun from a kit. By simpler I just mean a gun that is supposed to be plain and not made to the same standards as fine early colonial flintlock rifles. I suggest building a trade gun/musket/plain fusil or super-plain longrifle as your first attempt. Make your mistakes on a $500 parts set, learn how to do the basics of kit building (which is about 1/3 the skill set needed for scratch building) and have fun with your gun. Then work up to something appropriate for the F&I war period (who knows what that is except the Schreit rifle?) for your 4th build. By then you'll know what you want, will have studied the early rifles until you have them memorized like the books of the Bible. I am not blaspheming here but I know RCA 21, 22, 23 etc and 41, 42, and 43 like I know Matthew Mark Luke and John. You'll do the same and will be ready to build coherent pieces that pass muster.

Good advice, with which the only problem I have is I don't like NW Trade guns, or Fusils, and I'm not really interested in a musket/smoothbore right now. That leaves the super-plain longrifle, which I'm okay with, depending on your definition of "super-plain". Every thread I've read on this forum about building a rifle says, "Get the best wood you can afford... nobody finishes a rifle wishing they had gotten a lesser grade of wood.". The kits I'm looking at are basically $500 parts sets, but I'm looking to upgrade the wood to something with some curl is all.

Or not- just wanted to offer the other point of view. It is very possible to start with a "Early Lancaster" kit (for example) with all the right parts and end up with a well-built, accurate, dependable gun that any colonial rifleman would look upon and ask himself, "Did they make that in the West Indies?" We've all seen it and most of us have done it.

That is basically exactly what I'm looking to do. By no means do I believe I'm going to create a masterpiece with my first effort, but I do believe I have it in me to build a nice, accurate, and dependable longrifle from a kit, that's not so far away from being PC as to stick out like a sore thumb.

Am I way off-base? ::

Thanks for the help!

 

[rich pierce]

So long as you go into the project forewarned, you'll be fine and not have misgivings later.

"PC" means very different things to different people, so it's not always easy to know what the other person means.

For some, "PC" means "period correct" and within that umbrella, there are relaxed folks and strict ones. Relaxed folks are happy with a gun that have components and styling that did exist in the past, roughly in the time period of interest.

Other folks want a gun that for most intents and purposes could pass for a gun that really could have been made in a specific place and time (example, Lancaster PA 1785).

I use the term "coherent" myself. I like guns that are coherent (they make a clear statement easy to understand). In other words, the gun looks "together" and the parts are appropriate for a particular style of gun that existed and a specific range of years, the architecture is also appropriate for a particular "school", etc. And the decorative elements ring true for that same school.

But even fantasy guns can be coherent statements, but not reflect anything that ever existed. But it's just words and we should build what we like and have fun with them.

 

[Herb]

Static, you might want to order the "Rifles of Colonial America, Voume I and II", from an interlibrary loan. That way you can see if you want to buy them, or only one volume. No cost. If you haven't used this service, your librarian will know what you mean. Author is George Shumway. Might as well get Kindig's "Thoughts on The Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age" at the same time.

 

[Birddog6]

Herb: Good point..... I find myself building out of Vol.1 all the time & hardly ever look at Vol.2 unless it is just for general info or looking up a style or something like that. I can't imagine anyone that builds rifles not having the Kindig book....... To me that would be like a preacher with no bible....
:results:

 

Well, just by reading the table of contents I already know I will have to have RCA 1. And, like Birddog said, the Kindig book is like the "Bible"... so I'll probably just go ahead and buy them, along with The Gunsmith of Grenville County. These I will add to my existing collection, consisting of:

Recreating the American Longrifle
Art of Building the Pennsylvania Longrifle
Carving and Checkering of Gunstocks
Gunsmithing Tips & Projects
The Art of Engraving

... all of which I've read at least once, some twice. (I skipped over some of the modern stuff in Gunsmithing Tips, but have read all of Bivins' articles at least twice. :redthumb I've read Chuck Dixon's book twice, and need to read RAL again, though honestly I like Dixon's book better.

 

I would not buy the ? 11 piece Flex-Cut set as I would not use most of them. On a Precarve I would use basically 5 carving tools & the V parting tool about 50% of the time. I use these tools for just building the rifle, not for carving it. Well I use them for carving also but when I build a rifle I do almost all of my inletting with these Flex-Cut tools shown. So I suggest buying 5 Flex-Cuts (Sharp angled V, regular V, 3 rounded cutters, & the lil $12. sharpening block/kit they have for them.

Is there any chance I could get you to look at the Woodcraft website and tell me exactly which tools you are referring to? I don't know what you mean when you say "sharp V, regular V and 3 rounded cutters". I'm guessing the regular V is a standard 90-degree parting tool, and the sharp V might be a 60-degree parting tool? What size are the three gouges you recommend?

::

 

[Birddog6]

Me & that web site are not getting along, as all they give ya are numbers & I need pictures with the numbers to be sure.

Now keep in mind this is what I use, you take 10 builders & they will give ya 10 different gouges & V tools they like the best. But I know the almost flat gouge, I have 2 of them & they hardly leave the box. The angled parting tool never gets used, & several others. I have a set of Mascot palm tools that never leave the box.

Go back up to the photo I have on here. Starting from the Left:
L#1 gouge has a 1/16" opening (Not used allot but when needed, only thing that will work & do a clean rounded cut that small)
L#2 gouge has a 1/8" opening (I use this allot)
#3 Center gouge has a 5/16" opening (good for hogging out large areas, around cheekpiece, sideplate inlet, etc)
#4 V tool is 30 degrees (The is a very sharp V. and a lil taller than the 70 deg. V tool. Good in the lock inlet & getting into corners)
#5 V tool is 70 Degrees (I use this more than any of them combined)

:results: